Mr. MARCELLO. I didn't understand the question.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell the committee how much you get each year from the wire service as your share?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Poretto, will you tell us how much you earn each year from that wire service?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's see if this would incriminate you: If the Congress should pass a law prohibiting the transmission of information or the results of races at racetracks for 1 hour or more after the race is run, a law that could be enforced and be effective, would that have any impact on your business?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we can get the information from other sources. We already have some information on it. I am of the opinion that you folks who are coming up here and taking the fifth amendment-like there is something, I don't know whether there is or not; I have my ideas about it-show that there is something rotten in this whole racket or business, that you are inviting the Congress of the United States, if not challenging it, to try to pass some laws to deal with the problem.

If it is a legitimate business, and you say you are in the business and it is legitimate, you know of at least no Federal law against you receiving the information and, therefore, you are operating, insofar as the Federal Government is concerned, in a legitimate capacity, and that you perform and provide a service that is not illegal, I think you would stand in better grace before the Congress when suggestions are made with respect to restrictive legislation.

I don't believe, and you may not need my suggestion, I don't believe you are contributing to your own interest at all, and I say that to you and all the others that have been before us and that may yet come, when you come up here and take a position that gives every indication and carries with it every implication that you are engaged in some kind of business that is wrong or detrimental or harmful or very objectionable, and, therefore, you cannot afford to say you engage in the business without incriminating yourself.

If that is true, and if the Congress is going to accept your answers to these questions, that you cannot tell about these things without possible self-incrimination, I think whether you are innocent, guilty, or what, this is not a case where you are being tried. The very force, the very effect, of that sort of an attitude is certainly to arouse the concern of Congress to look into it and see if there is something going on here that ought to be stopped.

I am persuaded-I may be wrong-I am persuaded the Congress can pass laws that will stop it. I may be mistaken. But if there is nothing so bad and wrong about it, and the people want it, and the thing can be done, there might be a way, from the standpoint of the Federal Government, to, in a sense, legalize it, like it did by providing stamps for gambling devices.

I think those of you who are taking advantage of the fact that the Government has made it possible for you, so far as the Federal Government is concerned, to operate legitimately, and that you are not doing it, you have customers who are not doing it, you are simply flouting your Government and challenging it to see if it can do anything about it.

I am persuaded that the Government is going to accept the challenge. You have counsel of your own choosing, and they may advise you altogether differently, and you may follow their advice; but I think what you are doing, you and the others who are taking this sort of position, is you are looking your Government in the face and daring it to try to do anything about it.

I am persuaded it is going to take the dare. I may be mistaken. You might think that over.

Proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is one of the partners Ralph Emery, Mr. Marcello? Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is his real name Ammirato?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know Mr. Ralph Emery, Mr. Poretto? Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is he one of the absentee partners? That is, he stays up in Chicago and does not work out of New Orleans?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Marcello, can you tell me whether or not Mr. Emery lives in Chicago or whether he operates out of New Orleans? Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you hear the testimony earlier today of Mr. Kohn?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you hear the testimony, Mr. Poretto?

Mr. PORETTO. Yes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you wish to make any comment or make any statement concerning that testimony or deny any parts of it?

The CHAIRMAN. You are talking about Mr. Kohn now?

Mr. ADLERMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I wanted to ask him that, too.

You heard Mr. Kohn testify, did you, Mr. Marcello?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you in the room and heard him testify?
Mr. MARCELLO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Were you in the room and heard him testify?

Mr. PORETTO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do either of you wish to deny, modify, change, correct, or comment upon the testimony he gave wherein you were involved, either of you?

Do either of you wish to make any comments about it whatsoever, either criticizing it, denying it, modifying it, or changing it? Do you? Mr. Marcello?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. You can decline to answer. Your answer amounts to a declination of the opportunity to make such criticism or comment about it, or to correct it.

Let the record show that Mr. Marcello declines to make any correction in the testimony of Mr. Kohn, to deny it or to comment upon it. Very well, how about you, Mr. Poretto?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. What I just said to Mr. Marcello applies to you, and let the record so reflect.

Proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you both have copies of the prepared statement that Mr. Kohn read? Mr. Poretto, did you have a copy, did you read a copy of that prepared statement?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. PORETTO. I do not have a copy.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I said did you read a copy while he was testifying? Mr. PORETTO. I saw it.

Mr. ADLERMAN. What?

Mr. PORETTO. I saw it.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you read it?

Mr. PORETTO. No, I did not read much of it. I was listening.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you have it in your hands?

Mr. PORETTO. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Marcello, did you have a copy of the prepared statement in your hands?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ADLERMAN. I would like to show, Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. I have been pretty patient. Counsel, know they are here by sufferance of the committee, and we want to welcome you. But there are some things. The primary purpose, the only purpose for your being here is to advise the witness regarding his legal rights at these hearings and not to put words in his mouth as to what he shall testify to.

If you advise him that on that he ought to take the fifth amendment, that is very well; it is quite proper for a lawyer to do that, if he feels it is to the witness' interest to decline. But actually putting words in the mouth of the witness' testimony is not permissible.

Mr. WASSERMAN. I am attempting to advise the witness, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You advise him as to his legal rights. Proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Would you answer the question?

Mr. MARCELLO. Let me consult with my attorney.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you, Mr. Poretto-have you paid any money to the Illinois Sports News for services that they render to you by way of horserace results?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. By "you," I mean you as a member of the partnership. The same answer?

Mr. PORETTO. I have answered the question.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And similarly, have you paid any money to Mr. Gorman, of Indianapolis, for race results?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you or any other members of your partnership paid Mr. Cullen, of the Syndicate News, for the race results? Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground the answer might tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And have you at times paid Mr. Rosetti and Mr. Ferrara at Boston for the race results of the New England tracks? Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you also have reciprocal arrangements with these gentlemen so that you sometimes furnish information to them and they furnish information to you?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did anyone from your firm install a microphone in the announcer's booth of Jefferson Downs in 1958?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you employed anybody, as testified by Mr. C. Ray Edmonds

Mr. PORETTO. Repeat the question.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you employed anyone with a walkie-talkie who was acting as a stableboy, walking a horse around inside the track?

Did you employ anybody of that kind, to use a walkie-talkie?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground the answer might tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Marcello, have you ever employed anybody that used any walkie-talkie or any other device to get information from the racetracks at Jefferson Downs or any other racetracks?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you take instructions and orders from your brother as to what to do?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You are a pretty closely knit family, are you?
Mr. MARCELLO. What was the question?

Mr. ADLERMAN. I say you have a pretty closely knit family, you and your brothers and your older brother, Carlos, all acting together in concert?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you have interlocking property ownerships and various enterprises?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Does your brother control the Nola News in any way?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us what interest your brother has in the Nola News?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?

Mr. ADLERMAN. I would like to put Mr. Nulty on for a couple of questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Mr. Nulty has been sworn.

TESTIMONY OF LEO C. NULTY-Resumed

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Nulty, from an examination of the records: in the hands of the Government enforcement agency, have you been able to determine the annual earnings for the Nola Printing Co. for the last 5 years, let us say, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, and 1960?

Mr. NULTY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. ADLERMAN. In 1955, what were the gross sales of Nola Printing Co.?

Mr. NULTY. $201,861.92.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And in 1956?

Mr. NULTY. It was $243,148.49.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And 1957?
Mr. NULTY. $301,625.10.

Mr. ADLERMAN. 1958?

Mr. NULTY. The amount was $343,931.67.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And 1959?

Mr. NULTY. The amount was $328,385.54.

Mr. ADLERMAN. 1960?

Mr. NULTY. $296,548.86.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that total for the 6-year period?

Mr. ADLERMAN. Give me the figure for 1954.

Mr. NULTY. With 1954 in there, $236,836.66.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the figure for 1954?

Mr. NULTY. $236,836.66.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the total of all of them?

Mr. NULTY. The total of all of that, Mr. Chairman, is $1,952,338.24. Mr. ADLERMAN. That is for a 7-year period?

Mr. NULTY. That is correct.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you examined their bills for the accounts; payable that were available to you for the year 1960?

Mr. NULTY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did I understand this information, the source of it, is from their records?

Mr. NULTY. The original sources was from their records; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.