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Mr. ADLERMAN. If you dial Webster 2-62 and you stop, you can hold that line, is that correct?

Mr. CALE. We can hold that line.
Mr. ADLERMAN. How long can you hold that line?
Mr. CALE. We have done it a lot of times for 10 minutes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you do that when you know that the wire will get crowded with people asking for race results?

Mr. Cale. That is right.
Mr. ADLERMAN. So you dial at a time that the line isn't too busy?
Mr. CALE. Should not be too busy.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you are able to hold that line for 10 or 11 minutes?

Mr. CALE. That is right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. When you feel that the race results are in, you dial the last two digits and get the results?

Mr. CALE. Yes.

Senator Mundt. Does that mean that everybody else gets a busy signal?

Mr. CALE. I am not too sure of that. When you dial the last two numbers, you don't think I am tying up a trunk coming into them, but I am tying up a trunk going to the Webster office. If you get to the Webster exchange office, you can get into them.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How many lines do they have, do you know?
Mr. CALE. I don't know.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Is it quite a few?
Mr. CALE. Yes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. This little trick that you spoke of, is that known to the trade, to the other wire services ?

Mr. CALE. As far as I know.
Mr. ADLERMAN. It is generally known there?
Mr. CALE. Just by the trade.

Mr. ADLERMAN. If you also at times feel that you cannot get the results either from the National Daily Report or from the radio station, do you then dial to Las Vegas ?

Mr. CALE. I dial to Las Vegas.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you call in and exchange information with Mr. Swanson?

Mr. CALE. I do that.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you get the results that he has on the UP ticker sometimes when it is not available elsewhere?

Mr. CALE. That is right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And sometimes you exchange results that you get on local tracks in California with him?

Mr. CALE. That is right. There are some local tracks we have that don't go over his wire.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you call seven, eight, or nine times a day?
Mr. CALE. That happens quite often.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Would that be about correct?

Mr. CALE. Well, I got last month's bill, and on the phone it was exactly 100 calls in 26 days by me, and I think that is around 4 times a day.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You also give him a credit card ?

Mr. CALE. I have a credit card number for him to use. Sometimes I will call him and after waiting a couple of minutes if he doesn't have the information, I ask him to use my credit card to call me back, and if I already have the information I won't answer the phone.

Mr. ADLERMAN. In other words, he will use your credit card to call you back?

Mr. CALE. To call me back for information I was trying to get.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know of any other race wire services in your area of Los Angeles?

Mr. CALE. I know of two others and I have heard of two others. Mr. ADLERMAN. How do you get paid ?

Mr. CALE. How do I get paid? I get paid by mail. My customers are all numbered.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know the names of your customers ?
Mr. CALE. I don't know the names of any of my customers.
Mr. ADLERMAN. You keep their names only in a code?
Mr. CALE. When I get acquainted with them on the phone-
Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you keep your customers by code number?

Mr. CALE. I give every customer a code number. I know them by numbers, not by names.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have a list that you keep by yourself of the people that call you?

Mr. CALE. I keep a list so that I can turn it in to the bookkeeper.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Can you show it to us!
Mr. CALE. This is the same list I have. This is a list I made for her.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You have a double code, one code that you give to the customers by number, and in other words a man may be No. 110, and you may have him down there as X-4?

Mr. CALE. AA, AAA, B, CCC,DC.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Can we see that a moment?
The CHAIRMAN. What is the advantage of a double code?
Mr. CALE. I don't want the numbers to leak out, if I can help it.
Mr. ADLERMAN. I would like to put this into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will make a copy of this for the record. I will make it an exhibit and not give it to your competitors, if that is what you mean.

Mr. CALE. I copied that from my own record. I just have it for here. After I am through here, I don't want it anymore.

The CHAIRMAN. This will be made exhibit 56.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 56" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Mr. ADLERMAN. No further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. How much do you pay your help? What do you pay these two girls? You said you kept both of them.

Mr. CALE. They get $2.50 an hour, all of them.
The CHAIRMAN. All your help?
Mr. CALE. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Everyone that works for you?
Mr. CALE. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Thank you. You may stand aside.

At this point the chairman wishes to insert two exhibits into the record. I think these were testified to the other day and we overlooked it, when Mr. Elum Caudell testified. One would be a photostatic

copy of information in Dade County, Fla., charging operation of a gambling room. That will be marked "Exhibit

No. 57-A.” (The document referred to was marked “Exhibit 57-A” for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. The other is information against Mr. Caudell, a photostatic copy, in the same county, charging him with damaging telephone equipment. That may be made exhibit No. 57-B.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 57-B" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Also, immediately following the testimony of Mr. Caudle in the permanent records, I will ask that there be inserted an affidavit from Mrs. Jessie Kennedy. The affidavit is in duplicate form. It will be printed in the record.

August 9, 1961. I, Mrs. Jessie Kennedy, residing at 1824 Watson Avenue, Bronx, N.Y., am employed as resident manager for the Mamaroneck, N.Y., Motel, located at 1015 West Boston Post Road, Mamaroneck, N.Y. I have been so employed for the past 16 months.

On or about January 9, 1961, I received a telephone call from Archie Gianunzio, whom I know to be distantly related to my employer, Mr. and Mrs. Bernard Lancia. Mr. Gianunzio requested that I make a reservation for two men who were coming to New York from out of town. He named these two men as Walter Shaw and Ralph Satterfield. On January 10, 1961, these two checked into the motel and were given a room at the rate of $10 per day for the two of them. During the period January 10, 1961, and February 27, 1961, these men occupied this room for a period of approximately 44 days, checking out on one or two occasions, for a 1- or 2-day period. The total bill for these two men amounted to $440 which was later paid by Archie Gianunzio.

(Signed) Mrs. JESSIE KENNEDY. Witnessed by:

(Signed) Detective CYRIL T. JORDAN,

Shield No. 1142, C.I.B. (Signed) Detective THOMAS W. O'BRIEN,

Shield No. 234, C.I.B. Sworn to before me this 9th day of August 1961.

WINIFRED GILMORE, Notary Public, the State of New York, No. 601438025. Qualified in Westchester County. Term expires March 30, 1963.

The CHAIRMAN. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD E. GEON

Mr. GEON. I do.

The CHAIRMAX. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. Geon. My name is Richard Geon, and I live at 5357 Berridge Road, Los Angeles, Calif. I am a member of the Los Angeles Police Department, and at the present time I am assistant to the administrative vice division.

The CHAIRMAX. You may proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAX. Do you know L. G. Gruenberg, also known as Al Green?

Mr. Geox. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Does he run a race wire?
Mr. GEON. He does.

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Mr. ADLERMAN. Is that legal or illegal in the State of California ? Mr. Geon. At the present time it is legal on an appellate decision.

Mr. ADLERMAN. There is nothing that the police department can do about it?

Mr. Geon. Not as long as we cannot prove that these people are not aiding and abetting bookmakers.

Mr. ADLERMAN. In other words, unless you can identify the bookmaker and find him in the act of geting results from the wire service, and making a bet at the same time, you cannot make a case of aiding and abetting bookmaking, is that correct?

Mr. GEON. That is correct.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know Frank Milano?
Mr. GEON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Does he run a horserace wire service in Los Angeles ?

Mr. GEON. He does.
Mr. ADLERMAN. And Alex Plotkin?
Mr. GEON. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Does he run a race wire service?
Mr. GEON. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. And Guy Cale, the gentleman who just testified?
Mr. GEON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. The difficulty that you have is that you cannot put these men out of business unless you can keep them, or rather catch them, in aiding and abetting an actual bet?

Mr. Geon. That is our biggest problem.
Mr. ADLERMAN. No further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?

Senator MUNDT. As a police officer, what recommendation would you make to our committee as to legislation that we might enact that would enable you to move against this operation without all the difficulties and frustrations that now confront you?

Mr. Geon. Well, I believe, Senator, that if this information was not made immediately available to these people on an interstate basis, that it would help us greatly.

Mr. ADLERMAN. If there was some law making it illegal to transmit across State lines the information, say, within 30 minutes or an hour after the end of the race, it would help?

Mr. Geon. I think it would help to discourage a lot of the compulsive bettors that are engaged in off-track betting. I know it would hamper the bookmakers in this manner. These people who are complusive bettors like to find out what the results are of the last bet that they made. For instance if they hit good on a winner, make a lot of money, they are going to put it back immediately on the next race and try to make more. If they lose on their previous wager, they have an opportunity to try for the next one and make it back.

Mr. ADLERMAN. It sounds like they are going to bet either way. What difference does it make if they don't find out what happens?

Mr. Geon. It keeps them coming, if they get the information rap. idly. It keeps their interest aroused.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have racerooms or horserooms in Los An geles where people assemble like they do in some States?

Mr. Geon. Not in the sense that it can operate openly. We do have some problem with the situation there that we call the cash-room operations. These generally occur in a rear room of a shoeshine parlor or some other small business which acts as a front. The way this operation is carried on, it is very difficult to obtain enough evidence for a felony prosecution for bookmaking, in that this is a cash-on-the-line basis. The people all know each other. If a stranger comes in there, he is not going to place a bet. It is very seldom that you will find any writing that would indicate that a slip of paper could be a betting marker. A lot of the bets are given to the operator, word of mouth, who immediately phones them

out to another bookmaker, who makes a recordation. It is very difficult to get a felony conviction.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have legalized wiretapping in California ?
Mr. Geon. No, sir; we do not.
Mr. ADLERMAN. If you did have, would that help you?
Mr. Geon. I believe there would be a lot of bookmakers going out
of business.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I think that is right.
Mr. GEON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I might say that in the State of California they have only 15 bookmaking stamps, $50 wagering stamps, and in the city of Los Angeles only 11. I think that is a measure of the amount of activity by the police department in trying to eliminate bookmaking. It is usually in inverse proportion to the amount of activity and arrests, the amount of stamps that are purchased. In other words, where there is no local law enforcement, they sell plenty of stamps.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Herbert Wasserman.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WASSERMAN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HERBERT WASSERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, JAMES M. MCINERNEY

The CHAIRMAN. State your name and place of business.

Mr. WASSERMAN. Herbert Wasserman. I reside at 82–38 214th Street, Jamaica, N.Y.

The CHAIRMAN. And your occupation?

Mr. WASSERMAN. President and general manager of Armstrong Daily, Inc.

The CHAIRMAN. What business is it?

Mr. WASSERMAN. We publish a daily newspaper, specializing in turf and trotting news.

The CHAIRMAN. You have counsel ?
Mr. WASSERMAN. Mr. McInerney.

The CHAIRMAN. James M. McInerney, American Building, Washington, D.C.?

Mr. WASSERMAN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.
Mr. ADLERMAN. You are the president of Armstrong Daily?

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