Mr. PINCOCK. I would also like to submit the proposed programing section that we have, looking toward a revision of that form, so that you will have both of the documents.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be submitted as exhibit No. 58-A, so we have both of them.

(The document referred to was subsequently received and was marked "Exhibit No. 58-A" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Senator CURTIS. When was the last current form, not the proposed one, revised?

Mr. PINCOCK. I can't give you that information, Senator, but I will be glad to supply it for the record.

Senator CURTIS. All right. Will you supply a copy of the last one used?

Mr. PINCOCK. I believe that the last previous one will not be very substantially different from the existing one, but if you wish we would be delighted to supply that also.

Senator CURTIS. I would like to have it.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be submitted as exhibit No. 58-B. (The document referred to was subsequently received and was marked "Exhibit No. 58-B" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Senator CURTIS. Are there any questions on the application for renewal of a radio license, or any other transmitting media, that ask them to state whether or not they broadcast information about contests, races, or anything else, that might be used in a gambling enterprise? Is there any question dealing with this, directly pinpointed to this subject?

Mr. PINCOCK. No, sir. There is no question that runs specifically to this subject. The question is in terms of a description of the programing practices of the station, and this sort of thing may well be contained in a programing described as sports, or in one instance, I believe it is conceivable that the information might be contained in an agricultural program because it is the races from the State fair.

Senator CURTIS. There is where I disagree with what the Congress has done, as well as the practice of the Commission. I do not concede that the radio stations or the general public need any general guardian. I think we should spell out in the law what is unlawful, and your inquiries should be made to that, rather than an overall appraisal by some man, whether or not he thinks the general programing is good. That is, after all, his opinion.

Do you not think it would have some merit to ask the direct question, or questions, on an application for renewing a license pertaining to the use of that station for illegal-to contribute to illegal operations or to bad public morals, regardless of what they might be? Don't you think it would be a good idea to ask if they are doing that specifically?

They make out this application under oath, do they not?
Mr. PINCOCK. Yes, sir; they do..

Senator CURTIS. And if someone made a false one, and some branch of the Government, tax people, State prosecuting group, or anything else, if they did later find that station, and I am sure it is a very small minority of them, were engaged in this, and they would have filed a

false affidavit, that should be material when they went for the next renewal, shouldn't it?

Mr. PINCOCK. Yes, sir. It would not only be material but also probably would be the basis for a criminal prosecution in Federal courts, if anyone chose to proceed with it.

I would like to suggest this to you, Senator: Any questions that might be included on this renewal form, insofar as they go to questions of fact, "Do you or do you not carry" certain types of information, would not seem to me to present any problems.

A question in broader terms, in which it appears to me you have phrased your statement, may require some conclusions on the part of the licensee that might present some problems, but the basic idea I see no problem with.

Senator CURTIS. It wouldn't be so hard to form a question and say, "Do you broadcast horseracing results?" followed by a question of, "How much time elapses between the race and your broadcast?"

Mr. PINCOCK. This type of question I do not personally believe would be either a hardship on the licensee or present any serious problems. This again is a matter that I am sure the Commission will want to consider in connection with this revision of its programing renewal form that is now before it.

Senator CURTIS. Again I want to place part of the blame on the Congress, because I hold the concept that the Federal Communications Commission should not be a guardian and tell people what they should say or what they should listen to. I think we should spell out what is unlawful and have you police that and do it specifically in all fields.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mundt?

Senator MUNDT. I wonder whether you can tell us how many times within the last 6 months licenses have been either denied or withdrawn because of stations participating in the type of activity which we have been discussing here this morning, which, although probably not illegal in itself, contributes to criminal practice.

Mr. PINCOCK. This is a very easy question. There have been none. Senator MUNDT. What was that?

Mr. PINCOCK. There have been none in the past 6 months.

Senator MUNDT. Do you think there have been none because there have been no violations of this concept, or there have been none because you have not had occasion to apply

Mr. PINCOCK. There have been none called to the Commission's attention in the past 6 months that would require this type of action. I stated earlier in my prepared statement that we have had only seven complaints since 1957 along these lines. The investigators from the committee have indicated to me that they think the practice is a little more widespread than that and that we may not be filling all the gaps by waiting for complaints. But at least none have been called to the Commission's attention that require this type of action.

Senator MUNDT. Are you sure all your people down there aren't too busy looking at westerns that you don't have an opportunity to read what goes on in our committee room?

Mr. PINCOCK. Well, I think that is not so; no, sir.

Senator MUNDT. I would like to ask you about the kind of license, which I think is different from what we have been talking about, but

apparently some kind of licensing procedure is involved for what I would call a closed circuit radio operation, like a fleet of taxicabs. What is the official name for that?

Mr. PINCOCK. It is in our Safety and Special Radio Services, and it is a license for a taxicab service. It is a private industrial kind of license that permits the licensee to communicate with several units of which he is in control.

Senator MUNDT. Very well. In that area of licensing, I am confident you will find a great deal of misuse. From earlier hearings, dealing with Gary, Ind., as I recall, we found criminal elements using that kind of license.

My question was rather related to that particular kind of license rather than great, big, radio stations. How many times in the last 6 months have you had occasion to withdraw or deny licenses of that type because of the potential criminal aspects?

Mr. PINCOCK. Senator, in the past 6 months the answer is the same as to the earlier question. We have withdrawn no such licenses in the past 6 months.

Senator MUNDT. Have you denied any?

Mr. PINCOCK. Nor have we denied any that I am aware of. However, I would like to point out to you that the total overall volume of the stations that we must police, as of the close of business on June 30, 1960, was 651,993 licensed radio stations in operation in this country.

We do have a small staff, and we have to rely very much on the citizenry's calling offenses and violations to our attention. In one instance, at least, that I am aware of, we did deny a taxicab did take away a taxicab company's license where it was found to use its facilities to further some illegal horse track activities.

Senator MUNDT. These licenses don't go only to taxicabs. As I recall the one in Gary, Ind., dealt with a laundry or some kind of pickup service.

Mr. PINCOCK. We have them out to virtually every kind of business and industry. They perform a very useful function in most businesses and industries. The instances in which they are misused are certainly very small in number compared to the total.

Senator MUNDT. What is your attitude about granting a license to a man who has been called before a congressional committee or a grand jury and has concealed his guilt by taking the fifth amendment? Is he considered a good licensee?

Mr. PINCOCK. I hesitate to undertake to give a definitive answer to that question, Senator. The Commission, of course, looks at the character qualifications of each applicant in each instance, and it might very well find a different-it might use a different standard in determining the character qualifications for one kind of service and for another.

For instance, if the man were in the business of providing transportation to individuals and the statute required him to have a radio aboard his station, and the Coast Guard has licensed his boat, we may use a different standard than we do for the licensee of a television station or a broadcasting station.

Senator MUNDT. I am not interested in just a philosophical discussion about what you might do. I want to know what you do do, what your policies are. You might do a lot of things. We have

had witnesses here within the last few weeks who have been operating in this type of activity. We have had these private licensees for radios. Have you any attitude or policy whereby you deny or withdraw licenses of witnesses who appear before the congressional committees to discuss evidence before us concerning their loyalty and their criminal records and they blandly take the fifth amendment? Does that mean anything at all to the FCC?

Mr. PINCOCK. I am sure it means something. I will say, to the best of my knowledge, the Commission has not been faced with that specific problem. What they might do with it I am not in a position

to state.

Senator MUNDT. I wish you would carry back to the Commission the fact that this committee, representing a segment of the Senate, at least, is very much interested in getting some cooperation from the Commission on this score. Mr. Minow has made a lot of fine speeches about crime on television. We would like to get him interested in actual life and what he can do about it, instead of facilitating the licensing of stations by the FCC.

I think it is a lot more important to take some reform measures and try to stamp out crime which exists instead of giving speeches about crime on television, which may or may not be something in which the Government should interest itself. This is serious business. This is before us now. I recognize he is new and maybe you are new, but the problem is not new. It has come before us time after time after time. If we do get from you some kind of public statement that you are taking into consideration these fifth amendment characters, that you do consider it against the public interest to grant these precious valuable special licenses to people who think so little of decency and loyalty that they take the fifth amendment to conceal their activities, this would be a step in the right direction. Don't you really think that you can help us in that connection?

Mr. PINCOCK. Senator, you may be sure that we will call completely and fully to the attention of the Commisison your views and the views of the committee, and I am sure they will give it very serious consideration. I hope that they will come up with something which will be helpful to you.

Senator MUNDT. Thank you. That is all I know we can expect from you in your position.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any information regarding how the Jefferson Music Co. in Louisiana, in New Orleans, is using the license it has? It has an industrial license, has it not?

Mr. PINCOCK. Senator, I do not believe that we have in the last year monitored the operation of Jefferson Music Co. in Louisiana. But prior to that time, pursuant to some correspondence that we had from Mr. Kohn in New Orleans, we did monitor these facilities over a period of several months. During that period of time we didn't succeed in hearing a single emission from that station. I believe at the same time as the letter was written to us the letter was published in the local papers, and I suspect that this kind of publication may have had some effect.

The CHAIRMAN. The sheriff sent word down to the establishment, "We are going to come down there at 3 o'clock in the afternoon; sweep under the rug." What is the use of it if you are going to notify them in advance? I don't say you released the letter. The point I am

making is that if you are going to monitor, you want to monitor at a time when they are not putting on their Sunday clothes and their best foot forward. They will certainly do it if they know.

Mr. PINCOCK. We did not publish the letter.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not publish the letter?

Mr. PINCOCK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Again I point out that monitoring should come before and not after, it seems to me, if you want to really make it effective.

Very well. Anything else?

Mr. ADLERMAN. Yes. I would like to put Mr. Langenbacher on. The CHAIRMAN. You have been sworn. You remain under your present oath.

Keep you seat, gentlemen. There may be some question here that we may want to ask you.

TESTIMONY OF IRWIN LANGENBACHER-Resumed

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Langenbacher, have you made a survey of a limited number of radio stations in the area between here and New York?

Mr. LANGENBACHER. Yes, sir; 17 stations from New York City to Virginia.

Mr. ADLERMAN. In your survey you found there were three types of broadcasting relating to horseracing results?

Mr. LANGENBACHER. Yes, sir. I would say they would all fall under these three general categories.

Mr. ADLERMAN. That is the spot broadcast?
Mr. LANGENBACHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. The spot broadcast is what?

Mr. LAGENBACHER. The spot broadcasts give the results as they are received throughout the afternoon. There is a timelag between the running of the race and the broadcast, which, according to the policies of the stations, at least, varies from about 15 minutes to 30 minutes, minimum.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I think we have had testimony of various people in the race results business saying that if they can get the race results from 15 to 30 minutes it is still of help to the bookmakers and gamblers; is that correct?

Mr. LANGENBACHER. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have an affidavit from Mr. Lawrence D'Anna, who operated a wire service in the Baltimore area?

Mr. LANGENBACHER. Yes, sir. I have the affidavit signed by Mr. D'Anna, who has the wire service in the city of Baltimore. In about three sentences

The CHAIRMAN. The affidavit may be printed in the record in full. You may highlight it. You may quote from it. (The affidavit referred to is as follows:)

AUGUST 16, 1961.

I, Lawrence D'Anna, of the city of Baltimore, State of Maryland, do hereby make the following statement pursuant to the request of the assistant counsel, Irwin Langenbacher, for the McClellan committee, a standing committee on investigations, said request being made through my attorney, Preston A. Pairo,

Jr.

75477-61-pt. 3- -2