change shall take place calculated to diminish that class of artificer, the consequences may be most disastrous should it be the misfortune of this country to be again involved in war.

The Navigation Laws give encouragement to the British shipowner by exclusive advantages in the colonial and coasting trade, and these the shipowner regards as a compensation for the obligation he is under to build his ships in some part of the Queen's dominions and to employ a certain number of apprentices. He considers it in a degree his due for "value received," if I may say so, by the public, on account of his incurring expenses for the support of the Navy; and if manufacturers or others do really feel that the Navigation Laws in any degree cramp their commercial enterprise, they also ought to be content to yield a something to uphold a service to which they all owe their protection and safety. But it would be difficult perhaps to show that inconvenience is experienced by any class from the Navigation Laws.

The Navigation Laws give protection to British seamen, by securing to them employment in a calling for which they qualify themselves by a long and severe apprenticeship.

I understand that four main objects are held out to the shipowner to give him hope of a satisfactory competition with the cheap carriers of other countries:

First, that by the abrogation of the Navigation Laws he will be left at liberty to build his ships in cheap foreign countries.

Secondly, that he is to be allowed to take foreign seamen without limitation as to numbers. This was said to be the intention; but I am told that her Majesty's government have, with an excellent feeling for the interests of the seamen and the welfare of the Navy, given up that part of their plan ; but as this country is infested with a set of people who are ever at work to mislead public opinion upon matters of great national interest, I will beg permission to say a few words by and by on that point, lest the subject should again be agitated and pressed upon the attention of parliament.

I ought to have remarked that there are other classes also dependent in a great degree upon the Navigation Laws. I mean the anchor-smiths, ropemakers, sailmakers, &c, all of whose trades will prosper or decline just in proportion to the quantity of shipbuilding you have in this country.

The third advantage held out to the shipowner is, that he is no longer to be compelled to take apprentices.

And fourthly, as a further temptation to the shipowner to be reconciled to the change, his men are no longer to be liable to impressment.

These are the only four points upon which I can speak, for I know very little of the mercantile part of the question.

Neither of these points can be conceded without damage to the public service.

If the abrogation of the Navigation laws leaves the shipowner at liberty to build his ships in foreign countries, and he avails himself of such licence, it must inevitably diminish the shipwright class in this kingdom; and I will endeavour to show how much the safety of England depended on shipwright exertions during the late and former wars, and how much more than ever its safety must depend on upholding that class of artificer as regards future

wars.

Thirty-three years of peace have left us but few people who are conversant with the details of naval operations during the late war, and especially dock. yard and shipwright operations, being those which give the first impulse to war equipment.

During the late war we had, most part of the time, 800 pennants flying, and even so many as 900 ships were in commission for a considerable time. It may therefore well be imagined what exertions were necessary by the shipwrights to keep up the repairs of such a fleet, and to build new ships to supply the decay and the casualties constantly going on. But, numerous as our fleet was, it is likely to be on a much larger scale hereafter; for, in addition to our usual fleets, there must of necessity be an immense number of steamers, in a great measure as an addition and not as a substitute for the sailing ships. With such facts as to the number of ships in past times, and such unmistakeable signs of what may be the demand for naval exertion hereafter, it is of vast importance that we should guard against any risk of diminishing the shipwright class.

But for the extraordinary efforts of the shipwright in the last war, we never could have gone through it with the success which marked the operations of our Navy in all quarters of the globe. There were captured during the war 156 sail of the line, 382 large frigates, 662 corvettes, and in all 2506 vessels of war; and it may well be supposed that such sweeping destruction must have made us pretty certain of maintaining a superiority of numbers throughout the long protracted struggle: but the year 1814, the last year of the war, found us at the utmost stretch of exertion to keep up fleets adequate to the protection of our colonies and commerce, and to keep pace with the quickly renovated and increasing fleet of the French. We were at this period running a race with France in building, and although the exertion of the King's shipwrights was encouraged by allowing them to earn unlimited wages according to the prices in the scheme of task or job work.

The number of shipwrights in the King's yards throughout the war may be taken at an average of 3,714, and 875 apprentices, making a total of 4,589 working shipwrights, besides 550 in the colonial yards. Notwithstanding this great muster of shipwright strength, and the efforts extracted from them, the Admiralty was obliged to seek every possible assistance from the private shipbuilders; and I will endeavour to show the policy and the importance of giving every protection to that class, by stating what they have done for the country when we had enemies to deal with in every quarter.

The first ship of the line built by contract was in 1755, when Messrs. Wells built the Elizabeth, of 74 guns; and since that time the private shipbuilders have contributed greatly to the public wants. They have built and repaired (chiefly in the last war) 93 sail of line-of battle ships, and 466 trigates and smaller vessels, making a total of 559 vessels of war. Now, if the Navigation Laws had been abolished prior to the time of which I am speaking, and shipowners had been in the habit of building abroad, what might have been the fate of this country from insufficient shipwright strength? These facts surely warrant the deep anxiety which I and others feel upon matters so seriously threatening the welfare of the Navy and the safety of the kingdom. I have myself a special dread of a return of those times when, in the language of Mr. Pepys "the ship's decays outgrew their cures ;" and that must be our fate if we part with our shipwright strength. In the late war Buonaparte had nearly the whole sea front of the continent at his command, and he took full advantage of it to increase his fleet; he had as building ports, Venice, Genoa, Toulon, Rochefort, L'Orient, Cherbourg, Antwerp, and in effect all the ports of Holland. I had an opportunity to witness the great capability of Antwerp as a building port, having been sent there under the orders of Lord Castlereagh, to carry into execution the fifteenth article of the treaty of peace relating to the division of the Dutch and French ships and naval property; and I was astonished to find at that one port 13 sail of

the line on the slips, and some frigates; 19 sail of the line and 10 frigates having been previously launched there. The impression upon my mind at the time was, that if the war had gone on we should have been pushed to keep pace with the French in the building of ships.

What has happened may happen again; it therefore behoves this country to touch with great caution a law which, for a long series of years, has proved so eminently calculated to uphold our naval strength. The Dutch were once powerful at sea, often gallantly contending with us, and sometimes successfully; but, after the treaty of Utrecht, in 1713, they became careless about their navy, and they have ever since been insignificant on the ocean. I call this circumstance to remembrance, because it seems to admonish us not to be careless about our Navigation Laws, lest we also should become insignificant at sea. The importance of the shipwright class deserves to be long, very long, and seriously considered, before any step be taken that can by pos sibility hazard a diminution of shipwright work in this kingdom.

8342. You have hitherto referred exclusively to that provision of the Navigation Laws which requires that ships should be built in England ?-Yes, the moment you give the power to build abroad in cheaper countries, supposing the British shipowner to take advantage of it, you diminish the shipwright work in this country; and in proportion as you do so, you inflict a consequent injury upon the Navy and the naval power of this country.

8343. The committee understand your opinion to be founded upon the assumption that in foreign countries ships can be built cheaper than in this country, and that consequently, if there were a permission given to go to foreign countries for ships, the British merchant would rely mainly upon the foreign shipwright, artizan, and shipbuilder for the construction of vessels, which would diminish the number of shipwrights in this country, and that, by diminishing the number of shipwrights in this country, in time of war we should be deprived of a very important national reserve. That is my opinion. I take for granted that the shipowners in this country would be compelled to go to those cheap countries, if they were permitted to take those cheap ships, in their own defence. They would have no other chance in so unequal a competition. Again I say, the importance of the shipwright class deserves to be very long and seriously considered, for if it be impaired the country may be brought into a very perilous situation hereafter.

8344. You have expressed, in the clearest and most distinct manner, the disadvantages which would accrue to British shipping, if British shipbuilding were destroyed or seriously impaired in England; that goes upon the assumption that the repeal of the Navigation Laws would affect shipbuilding in this country; has your attention been very much called, either by your professional duties, or by private study, to the question, how far the repeal of the Navigation Laws would affect shipbuilding in this country?—I cannot pretend to say to what degree it would affect it. Of course it depends upon the shipbuilder, and upon what inducement he has to go abroad to build his ship instead of build. ing here; but if he is brought into so desperate a competition with all the cheap building and cheap navigating countries, he must do everything he possibly can to reduce his expenses.

8345. Have you any experience of the comparative cheapness of foreign and of British-built vessels?—No, I have not,

8346, During the time when there was a great demand for shipwrights in this country, do you remember any instance of their combining with a view to raise wages, either against the government or against private shipbuilders? -Yes; I remember in the dockyards that there was a very strong feeling of insubordination on the part of the shipwrights, which proceeded to a very NO. 12.-VOL. XVII.

4 R

great extent; but such was the urgency of the service that the Admiralty were obliged to give way to the demands the men made, and expresses were sent in every direction, saying, "You must give the shipwrights what they have asked."

8347. When there was an attempt to exact exorbitant wages on the part of the shipwrights of the dockyards, have you ever found that private yards afforded you assistance, and tended to counteract that feeling ?—I do not think I have any recollection on that particular point.

8348. When there was any difficulty in obtaining shipwrights to do the work that there was to be done in the King's yards, had you recourse to private yards?—Yes; we had recourse to every quarter that we could go to. And, as I have already stated, 559 vessels were built and repaired by the merchants; and but for the private merchant yards, this country could not have carried on the war.

8349. But still that assistance must have been insufficient, inasmuch as you stated that orders were sent to submit to the terms which the shipwrights in the royal yards demanded?—Yes, On several occasions they were unreasonable and extortionate in their demands. But the shipwrights were, both in the King's and Merchants' Yards, urged to put forward the greatest exertion they could use; and they obtained unlimited earnings, according to the scheme of task and job work, which, I have before said, regulated the prices for every kind of work; and the men were allowed to work over the usual hours, and to get very high wages; I have known the men working by torchlight, in order to get on with the work, which was very pressing.

8350. You have spoken of cheap shipbuilding countries; have you any means of comparing the quality and durability of ships built in those countries with the ships built in this country ?—No, I have not, I only call them cheap-building countries because I believe that to be the fact from what I have heard.

8351. Then, in fact, the ships built in those countries may not be in the long run cheaper than the ships built in this country ?—I should think they would be cheaper; that is the impression on my mind; and as they can get the materials on the spot they must be cheaper; and there would be the freight and duties to this country to be added in the case of the ship being built here.

8352. In those countries do they not import from this country a considerable portion of the materials used in shipbuilding ?-I am not aware of it. 8353. Copper?-Copper they do import.

8354. Iron ?-Yes.

8355. Cordage?—No, we get cordage from them. I am not aware of any cordage going out there.

8356. Hemp?-Hemp they get from other countries, not from this.

8357. Are you aware that many foreigners build vessels, especially steamvessels, in this country?

I am aware that steam-vessels are frequently built here, but not others. A steamer is a new kind of vessel, and the English are the best builders of such vessels; and those who wish to obtain good steam-vessels naturally come to this country for them; but I do not know that for other vessels they have come here.

8358. You were asked as to the durability of foreign vessels as compared with the English; have you ever had an opportunity of comparing the durability of foreign and British ships of war ?"

The durability is very uncertain. The Toulon ships are ships that last very long, because they are built with Italian oak, which may be said to be almost imperishable. There was a sixty-four gun ship that I remember some

years ago; she was seventy years old, and was as sound as a nut; there was not a defect in her; she was built in Toulon of Italian timber.

8359. Have you any reason to believe that she was built at less cost than a smilar vessel in this country?—I have not the least idea.

8360. Are not many of the Spanish ships of war very durable? Yes; they are generally built of hard woods that are very durable. Much was said in the war about building by contract as being very expensive, because of the ships going to decay so rapidly. This fact is to be attributed chiefly to the circumstances of the time, which required so many ships; and they went to decay so rapidly because they were built in such a great hurry : and green material was frequently unavoidably introduced, and that hastened their decay. Certainly the ships so built were not durable.

8361. Do you think that the Danish ships of war are as durable as the English? I am unable to offer a comparison. I have been at Carlscrona, and have seen the Swedish ships there built under cover, which is a very wise measure we have lately got into, though the Swedes and Venetians have adopted it many years.

8362. Foreign countries would be able to build ships as durable as the ships of this country?-I do not know. The Russian ships are built of fir; they have not any oak I believe, and they perish very rapidly.

8363. The ships that you previously referred to were built either of oak or Spanish mahogany ?-Yes, and they are very durable; but all the Russian ships decay very rapidly indeed.

8364. Are the Swedish ships built of oak ?-They are built of fir frequently, but they are more durable than the others; the Russian ships are very magnificent to look at, but they decay very fast; the Swedish ships are more durable than the Russian; the Archangel ships built for Russia go very rapidly to decay.

8365. You have spoken of the insubordinate conduct and the extortionate demands of shipwrights during the war; may not that have proceeded partly from the knowledge of the fact that they had the monopoly in their hands, that foreign shipwrights could not be employed, and that therefore ships could not be built in this country except by English shipwrights?

Yes; no doubt they felt their importance during the war, and they took the opportunity, as other people would have done, of raising their demands. But as far as combination for wages goes, if the Navigation Laws were done away with, it would transfer the combination from the men to the masters. The master would say to the men, "If you do not accede to the terms that I choose to offer you, I will go to a foreign country and build my ships there." Therefore, I say, that it would transfer the combination from the men to the master, it would put the men eutirely in the power of the master.

Loss OF THE BRIG "SARAH" AND THE SCHOONER "CASTLEREAGH.', We have to announce the total wreck of the brig Sarah and schooner Castlereagh of this port, at the island of Lefoo, on the 13th February last, but we are happy to say without loss of life, the captains, officers, and seamen, thirty-five in number, having arrived in Sydney yesterday morning by the Eleanor. The Sarah, Capt. Seagrove left Sydney on the 1st December, and the Castlereagh, Capt. Silver, on the 19th, both on a Sandal-wood voyage, the former proceeded to New Caledonia, and the latter to Lefoo. Captain Silver having arranged with the natives there to cut wood, proceeded to Erromanga, and anchored in Dillon Bay on the 15th January, for the purpose of watering and collecting wood, but after remaining there ten days without obtaining much of the latter, sailed again for Lefoo, and arrived