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paratively young man, I judged him to be about 35 years of age, looked up and seemed to be happy. A few minutes later he kinda looked down, and we could see that he rather quivered, and then in a short while he looked up again and said:

Gentlemen, I surely thank you, but if I get the hair for nothing the expense of making it up eats me up. I thank you.

And I did not get anything for my hair. Now, those are the conditions confronting us to-day. We are almost in the same condition. as your man down there. It is a horrible condition.

The CHAIRMAN. How about hides?

Mr. KREY. Mr. Chairman, I only kill about 50 or 75 cattle a day, something like that, just for a local concern.

The CHAIRMAN. How about tankage?

Mr. KREY. I myself let about 150 men go the first of last month, and I intend to run my tankage down the river. That is, I will have to haul then.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no market for by-products?

Mr. KREY. That is where the trouble comes in, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the committee. Those men who were in the tankage room were paid 52 cents an hour, or they were getting 60 cents an hour and they were reduced to 52 cents an hour by Judge Alschuler's decision, which the Government fixed here at Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the present price of packer hides?

Mr. KREY. I sell my hides green, and I get from about 6 cents to 7 or 8 cents a pound for them.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did you get for them a year ago? Mr. KREY. If I am not mistaken the price was around 45 to 50 cents. The CHAIRMAN. How about beef? How does the wholesale price compare with that of a year ago?

Mr. KREY. Well, as I say, the beef end I have nothing at all to do with. My son-in-law handles that.

The CHAIRMAN. How about pork or hams?

Mr. KREY. Hams are comparatively high and so are pork loins, comparatively speaking. My hogs last week cost $8.35 a hundred or somewhere around that, and I never saw them so high. But that is as somebody else said this morning about lamb chops and selected cuts that the people want. That is the only thing you can sell.

Gentlemen of the committee, I will give you my statement if you wish it.

The CHAIRMAN. No; I do not think the committee would be interested in your personal affairs. We want to find out something about the business. The contention is that the price of live stock has been materially reduced.

Mr. KREY. It has.

The CHAIRMAN. But that the wholesale price of the finished product has kept up; that there has not been a decrease in price to cor· respond with the decrease in price of the live stock.

Mr. KREY. Mr. Chairman, I hear that same thing all over the country.

The CHAIRMAN. You have explained that in part. Now what else have you to say about that matter?

Mr. KREY. I hear the same song from my friends wherever I go. I have been from San Francisco around the central part of the country, and now I come here, and it was only a few months ago that I

was on the grand jury, and there were new friends I have never met before. When they found out I was in the packing business of course they right away branded me as one of the robbers. Of course they do not understand the situation.

The CHAIRMAN. If the packers are losing money, how about the retail price of meat products?

Mr. KREY. Well, that is what they are complaining about-the

consumers.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you state how retail prices compare with the price of the live animal?

Mr. KREY. No; I can not.

The CHAIRMAN. You come in contact with them?

Mr. KREY. I come in contact with them and have a good many friends who are retail butchers. They have done well here lately. That is all I know about the matter. I do not know what they sell the meat products at. But the same question was put to me by some man when I sat in the grand jury, and these men wanted to know whose fault it was. I told him it was their own fault. They

wanted to know why. I said:

As long as you go to that butcher and pay him the price he asks and he does not lose a single customer, he would be a darned fool to come down in price. But you tell your wife to go and shop around.

I told him the trouble was that when somebody tries to reduce the price and advertises a reduced price the average consumer pays little or no attention to him.

Now, take hides; and when I bought a pair of shoes a few weeks ago, black shoes, I paid $5 for them, and I have them on at this time. What did I do? I looked around. I want to patronize the fellow who sells within reason. And so it is that I say it is the people's fault, these high prices. The old gentleman here who represented the farmers told you why the expense went on. Of course

I do not know the retail end of it, and he may have his story all right. But you will have to get that from him. And the retailer may have another story.

The CHAIRMAN. The expense to him would be cost of distribution. He has to pay rent, clerk hire, telephone hire, and so on.

Mr. KREY. It is all on a high basis. If you legislate too much, it may do more harm than good. If you can legislate like you did in the matter of the meat inspection law, all right. That was a good law. Or if you can legislate as I have heard about the Interstate Commerce Commission stopping rebates-that was a very good thing.

But, gentlemen of the committee, be careful. Otherwise you may be just in the same condition in a year or two, and the people will be cursing you just like some people are cursing to-day. Maybe some of you Congressmen have voted for some bill, and you thought it was a good thing; you were satisfied you were doing a good thing but may be it did not turn out all right. Sometimes these things do not work out so well. Legislation can not cure all the evils. If you pass some one of these bills, it is a question what the commission you will provide for will do. It is surely going to mean an additional expense; that is a cinch; and it has got to be paid from some source. The CHAIRMAN. Isn't it true that proper regulation is protection to the honest vendor?

Mr. KREY. If there is any protection in it, all right, but I am afraid of it. We would rather not have it, because I think we are going to crawl out of this situation in a reasonable time, so far as we are concerned; that is, so far as we packers are concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Mr. KREY. I thank you.

Mr. LIGHTFOOT. We have just one more witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Let him come around.

STATEMENT OF MR. L. E. DENNIG, TREASURER OF THE ST. LOUIS INDEPENDENT PACKING CO., ST. LOUIS, MO.

Mr. GERNERD. Where are you located?

Mr. DENNIG. At St. Louis. We have a good-sized plant, and our sales last year were about $34,000,000.

Mr. GERNERD. That is a pretty good, respectable business.

Mr. DENNIG. We killed a little over 634,000 hogs and about 71,000 cattle, and some sheep and some calves. I can give you full details if you want them.

In a general way we are here on account of these various bills. I have read over the McLaughlin bill, which is similar, I believe, to the Norris bill. I have read over the Haugen bill, and have read over the Anderson bill.

While I would possibly prefer one to another, yet in a general way we are opposed to any interference with the packing-house business. We think that we are in the same class with every other line of business. We have a good reputation with our bankers and with our customers and with our fellowmen, and we do not think we should be ostracized and put in a separate class as against the foundryman or the baker or the shoemaker or any man in any other line of business, and if you must legislate for business why not do it for all, and not select the packers, but make every man come up to your requirements as you see the situation?

I will take, for instance, the Haugen bill, putting us under the Secretary of Agriculture, with whom we are familiar; I mean the present Secretary. Even if that bill, which I believe could be worked under the easiest of any of the bills, were enacted into law, yet even in the case of that bill it is not defined exactly what power the Secretary would have over the packing business. That matter ought to be well defined in any bill, whether for the packers or for all of the business men in this great country. Those powers must be limited. Only the public_good should govern and nothing else.

So it is that I say in a general way we would much prefer not to have any legislation, not unless you include every line of business in the United States, and put them all in the same class. They are no better than we are and have not been in the past, and I really would prefer no legislation of any kind. I do not think it necessary, especially not at this time.

Gentlemen of the committee, you should give the men in business a chance to get on their feet again. They have troubles enough of their own without having to make out a lot of new reports and put in a new set of books and having a new bunch of inspectors come around the plant. Between income inspectors and the balance of them one has nothing to do but to have two or three men on the job

pulling out books for them, and what is the result? When it is all over they will give you a clean bill of health, but when it is over you have wasted from a week to six or seven weeks with them. And when it is all over they have not improved the situation any nor lessened the cost of the article to the consumer. It will do nothing except probably to give a job or two to some inspectors, and I do not think there is any advantage in that.

We wish you might see your way clear to head off this proposed legislation and give us a chance to get on our feet again. But, in any event, keep us in line with the balance of the business men in the country. Do not make a mark of us.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, gentlemen of the committee?
Mr. VOIGT. I have none.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you finished your statement?

Mr. DENNIG. I have practically finished it. If you want to ask me any business questions I have some memoranda here I can refer to.

There is one more thing I want to say. There were some statements made to-day from which I judge there must be quite a difference of opinion as to the kill of animals in this country. I have before me some figures that we got from an association which we belong to, the Institute of American Meat Packers. For instance, in the year 1920 the kill of all animals slaughtered in the United States was 100,650,502, of which the smaller packers and big butchers killed 63,500,544, or 63 per cent. Of those 100,000,000 cattle slaughtered there were inspected by the Government and other people for shipping purposes 61,710,402, and of that total the five large packers killed 37,155,958, all of which were inspected.

I have figures on this matter clean back to 1913, and the percentages do not vary much. So you will see that the smaller packer and the butcher kill, of all the animals slaughtered-cattle, hogs, sheep, and whatever else they may kill, calves and so forth-practically 63 per cent. So you will see we are quite a factor.

And so it is I say when you want to pick out the five big packers and judge the balance of the trade by them, you are making the tail wag the dog. I do not think you mean to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. Those figures were prepared by whom?
Mr. DENNIG. The Institute of American Meat Packers.

That is

an association of all the meat packers of the United States, little and big.

The CHAIRMAN. Those figures are probably more complete than any we have.

Mr. VEEDER. Those figures are taken from the official records of the Department of Agriculture.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the total kill of animals?

Mr. VEEDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Both intrastate and interstate?

Mr. VEEDER. Yes, sir; it is the total kill going into consumption. Mr. VOIGT. I think that statement ought to go into the record. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection it is so ordered.

(The paper referred to is here printed in full in the record, as follows:)

46985-21-15

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In connection with these figures it should be remembered that the five larger packers are in keen com petition with each other. It should also be remembered that the largest of the five handles no more than 12 per cent of the country's total meat, or about 22 per cent of the output of plants under Federal inspection.

Mr. VOIGT. Your figures do not contradict the figures of the Federal Trade Commission, do they?

Mr. DENNIG. I do not know, except I do not believe you quoted this morning the entire kill. You only quoted the interstate kill or the inspected cattle, rather.

Mr. VOIGT. It was understood that that was the number of cattle killed that were in interstate commerce. We all know that there are more animals killed in the country than are killed in interstate

commerce.

Mr. DENNIG. Well, yes. That is the reason I got these figures. I felt the same way, and I do not think that the entire business should be controlled by the minority. In this country the majority rules, and why should we be judged by what is an absolute minority as to whether we are guilty or not.

Mr. VOIGT. You understand that none of these bills attempts to regulate any packer who does not do an interstate business? Mr. DENNIG. That is true.

Mr. VOIGT. These bills do not apply to the local butcher.

Mr. DENNIG. Nevertheless, if you are going to give us legislation and you think that legislation is absolutely necessary do not exclude anybody; put them all in, whether it is the baker or the butcher or the dry-goods man or anybody else. If he violates the law have him yanked up and give him his medicine. That is the way we feel about it, not that we should be picked out from all the rest.

Mr. VOIGT. It may be too big an order for this committee or even for the Congress to try at one time to regulate them all.

Mr. DENNIG. Yes; but this is something that goes into everybody's house and we are all interested.

Mr. VOIGT. Your only objection to this legislation is that you might be called upon to make some additional reports?

Mr. DENNIG. Yes; and we would be bothered in many ways. Here is another thing that comes to me. I have read this bill over in a way, and suppose one of our employees makes a mistake of some kind, what will be the result? It all depends upon the inspector, and the mood he happens to be in at the time, as a general thing. Whether I make a mistake or whether our president makes it or one of the men out on the loading dock makes a mistake in violation of the rules, we can be reported and maybe found guilty.

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