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tous each, would require twenty-four men blished ship-owners to meet in competieach, allowing six men to every hundred tion any individual who should offer to tons, whilst one Coni pany's ship to carry enter the Company's service. twelve hundred tons, or cargo equal 10

If he was misunderstood by the hon. prothree small ships, would require froin one prietor (Mr. Freshfield) who supposed him hundred and twenty to one hundred and to have said that there was no other eviforty men, and that all the expenses

dence exaniiued before the committee than would be nearly in the same proportion. that of the ship-owners themselves, he was Certainly, in many points of view, the most willing to correct that misapprehenships for the China trade required a pow

sion. He ineant to state no such thing.. erful crew; but the question was not His observations were confined merely to what number of men was absolutely ne. matters of account upon which the owcessary under the present mode of equip vers had given evidence; it was certaiuly. ping ships. He wished, however, the court not his wish to conceal from the court to take into consideration, whether the ex that other evidence had been adduced.' pensive outfits iu men and stores now or Mr. Morice and Capt. Boulderson, of this. dered were absolutely necessary; and all house, bad given evidence very much to he was desirous of submitting was, whe their credit and abilities. He had no dether it would not be better to meet the ex sire to excite an unfavorable impression pected loss complained of, by reducing the beyond what the real merits of the case extent of the outfit? There was another ob- justified, and therefore he had no objecservation which he was desirous of making, tion to make any alteration in the wordmore immediately applicable to the hou. ing of his motion which would meet with director. He (Mr. H.) had always giren the wishes of the hon. proprietor. that hon. gentleman credit for the part he There was another point which had took in resisting the combination of the been noticed in the debate that required owners of the old system of shipping, and correction. His hon. friend (Mr. Lowndes), in introducing that system which had had stated what he would have much been established by the 39th of the king. ditficulty to prove. He had stated, in a He sincerely hoped, that as the hon. direc manner the most unaccountable, unless tor took a most active and distinguished his memory had totally failed him, that part in effecting that very important when the discussion took place upon the change, by which many millions had been renewal of the charter, be (Mr. H.) saved to the Company, he would not now had contended that the Company's trade take his shoulders from the wheel, but would not suffer by being laid open to the nawould continue, with the same laudable tion. Never was his hon. friend more mis. spirit, to exert himself in effecting farther taken than when he advanced such a stateimprovements in the system. Nothing meut as correct. Unfortunately it was would please him more than to see that his (Mr. H.'s) lot, on that occasion, in this hon, director continue his exertions in so court, to have five hundred to one against important a cause, because the present him. It must be in the recollection of state of things, if continued, would keep every body else, that he (Mr. H.) then alive unwarranted expectations in all their stated his conviction, that if the trade to owners, and would encourage them to go India was opened the East-India Compaon in the hope, that however imaginary ny would find themselves met by the comtheir difficulties were they would always petition of innumerable private traders, find the means of influencing the direc and he further added, that before four or. tors in their favor. Now he (Mr. H.) five years had elapsed, and a fair trial would be the last person to leave things given to the experiment, they would find in that kind of suspense. He conceived the competition of the private traders so the determination of the present ques great that the Company, i their own detion in favor of the owners as only a fence, would be obliged to give up the contemporary measure which would leave the test altogether. In answer, however, to Company hereafter in the same difficulties that statement, he was told by an honoin which they now were. This in fact rable director (Mr. Grant) that after a was only a half, and a very dangerous trial of two or three years the private measure, as it would leave the directors merchants would be ruined. That proand the owners to the same unpleasant phecy, however, had not yet been rea, discussions about their respective inte lized ; and, from present appearances, prorests; and it would leave the door open bably never would. That answer, howeto the owners to exert that influence over ver, was thrown out in reply to his arguthe directors which it was too well kuown ment, and his hon. friend was one of they had acquired. He sincerely hoped, those who joined in that prophecy. He however, that the court of directors would (Mr. H.) had foretold at that time the institute this most desirable inquiry; and great increase of the trade that would take that, above all, they would adopt means place between India and England, if the for reducing the scale of expense in the trade'were laid open, and that a hundred outfit of ships, so as to enable the esta private ships a year would not be suftiAsiatic Journ.-No. 25.

VOL. V. I

cient to bring home the cargoes ; but the bers of the committee of by-laws, to whose 'hon. director (Mr. Grant) had stated his nomination he had strongly objected, and beliet (and the court had agreed with who, he thought, could not legally act him), that a few trials would ruin the spe on the committee. By the statute of culators It was satisfactory to him to Queen Aune, while a gentleman was a inform the court, that, since that period, director of the Bank of England, he could about three years and a half, there had not officiate as a director of the East-India been three hundred and seventy or three Company, and their learned counsel (Mr. hundred and eighty private slips licensed Adanı) had, on a former occasion, laid it to trade to India, and that he had not heard down as an invariable rule-omne majus of one failure. The merchants had de continet in se minus. Now, if the act of rived a fair profit, and India had been en Anne prevented a director of the Bank of riched. A glut of ships in India might be England from performing the functions of expected soon to take place, encouraged a director of the East-India Company, was by the great success already experienced; it not against the law of the land, the reabut like all commercial affairs, they would son of the thing, and the spirit of their soon find a level. How his hon. friend constitution, that he should be suffered to could fall into such a mistake in ascribing sit on any committee ? He stated this, to him the assertion that the Company's because, if his objection were a good one, trade would not suffer, he was at a loss he would endeavour to nominate an effito imagine. He (Mr. H.) vow utterly cient person in the room of Mr. Baring. disclaimed that idea, and trusted that geil

The Chairman.-"'The court is assemtlemen would not go away with a votion

bled to take into consideration the report that he had been at any time inconsistent of the committee of by-laws, which was in the course of conduct which he ha:I Jaid on the table on the 18th ult. and pursued in that court. He now further printed for the use of the proprietors. prophesied that, before four years more had That is the only business now before us." elapsed, the Company, under the increas Mr. Lowndes.-" Should Mr. Baring ing difficulties with which they were sur

be excluded, I shall propose my worthy rounded, would be obliged to give up the

friend Mr. Hume." whole or greater part of the trade to In The Chairman then proposed that the dia, as being productive of loss instead of court should approve of the alteration profit, and affording no prospect of success. made in section 4. chap. iii. Although he did not expect that his [The original law ordained that any dimotion would be carried, yet he could not rector or officer of the Company, who consent to withdraw it, because he con should be guilty of a wilful breach of any ceived the facts therein set forth were of the Company's by-laws, to which any strictly correct in every particular. He other special penalty was not annexed, had not heard any argument to alter his

should be rendered incupable of holding opinion upon this question, and was only any otfice under the Company. But, as solicitous that that opinion should stand the qualification of directors was fixed by upon the records of the court.

charter and statute, counsel were of opi. The question was put and negatived. nion, that any by-law containing a disHERTFORD COLLEGE.

qualitication of directors, on a ground not

provided for by the charter or statute, was The hon. D. Kinnaird gave notice of void ; and the alteration proposed by the a motion for repealing a clause in the

committee, in conformity with this opicollege act, which made it compulsory in

nion, instead of declaring the offending carents to send their sons to that institu

director positively incapable of holding pion.--Adjourned.

any office under the Company, merely or

dained, “ that he shall be liable to be reEast-India House, July 3, 1817.

moved from his office of director, and COMMITTEE OF BY-LAWS. shall be incapable thereafter of holding A general court of proprietors was this any office under the Company.] day held, pursuant to adjournment, for Mr. Hume said, there was a preceding the purpose of taking into consideration part of the report, on which he wished to the report of the committee of by-laws, deliver his sentiments. It was there stated and the alterations proposed by them. by the committee, “that, in the course of

The Chairman (John Bebb, Esq.) hav the examinations made by them, no ining stated the business on which the court stance of neglect, or violation ofany of those were assembled, and the clerk having read wholesome rules formed for the control of the report of the committee of by laws. the conduct of the Compauy's affairs, had

Mr. Hume rose and said, he apprehend- fallen within their observation.” Now, ed, that observations connected with the lie was extremely sorry to say, that two by-laws committee might then be made points had fallen under his notice, which with propriety. He wished to ask, whe he would bring before the court at. no disher any communication had been made by tant period, where it was most apparent Mr, Alexander Baring, one of the mem that those wholesome rules had been vio

lated. The directors had taken upon ceeding is not to rescind the former law, themselves the right of purchasing

in the first instance, and then to enact The Chairman.-" The hon. proprie the new law?" tor is not speaking to the question.”. Mr. Howorth.-" It is rescinded by Mr. Hume.

-"I submit that I am. There the opinion of counsel.” Are observations contained in this report,

Mr. Hume.-6. The counsel are the the correctness of which I deny. What legal advisers of the Company, but they use is there in making these preliminary have no voice in this court, either for reobservations, if they are not to be com scinding an old law, or proposing a new inented on?"

one.” Mr. Howorth." I wish the cow Mr. Hume then moved, “ That section would order that which the hon. proprie- 4. chap. III. of the old by-laws be restor objects to, to be read, in order that the cinded ;" which motion was seconded by proprietors may be fully aware of the Mr. Howorth. weight of his observations.”

The Deputy-Chuirman (Mr. Pattison) Mr. Hume." I will not take up a mo suggested whether they would not, by ment of your time. I must put it to the proceeding in this latter course, get into candour of this court, whether a discus difficulties. For, if the conrt rescinded sion is to take place on every part of the the old by-law, and the new one was not report ; or whether you think proper, con carried, they would be without any bytrary to all rule and precedent, to put a law on that specific point. It was, therestop to such free discussion ?"

*fore, better that the amendment should be Mr. Parry.--" The hon. proprietor is, submitted to the court. I think, quite in order, in observing, ge

The Chairman.-“ As a guide, I will nerally, on the report of the committee of refer to what was done before, in the geby-laws. It is to consider that report we

neral court, on the 19th of April, 1815, are assembled. I do not think it is a when the alterations in the by-laws were matter of courtesy. He has a right to submitted to the proprietors.' offer such observations as he may think

Mr. Hume said, that two discusproper.”

sions had taken place as to the mode of Mr. Lowndes.-" Will the Chairman be altering the laws, and, he thought, that good enough to state, what we are allow which he now proposed was then agreed to. ed to discuss, and what is forbidden ? The Chairman wished to submit a slight Here a gentleman is proceeding to make

amendment to the new law. an observation on the report of the com

Mr. Hume said, before any amendment mittee, which is a fair subject of discus was agreed to, it was absolutely necession, but he is told, that it is improper.” sary to rescind the old law, otherwise

The clerk then read the first paragraph it would remain in effect. Having goo in the report, to which Mr. Hume had rid of that, then they were to decide, whealluded.

ther the new law should be inserted in its Mr. Hume." I beg to know when place. He submitted, that the regular it will be competent for any individual to way was to strike the old law from their observe on what has now been read?” books before they enacted a new one. Mr. Bosanquet said, that, in point of

Mr. K. Jackson did not think the order, he thought the hon. proprietor was opinion of his hon. friend (Mr. Pattison) competent to speak to any introductory was correct. Here were four or five laws, part of the report, when he came to make declared to be bad in themselves. Thereobservations on any positive motion before fore, it was necessary to adopt others that the proprietors. But, whatever he might say, came within legal ideas and recommenit could not alter the reason for the com dation of the committee. But to say, mittee having done what, in the execution that, if you removed the old laws, without of their functions, they had thought it first agreeing to new, you might be denecessary to do. He could not see how prived altogether of regulations on parthat could, practically, be made the sub ticular points was an overstrained arguject of a motion before this court. After ment. What would the Company be decertain preliminary observations had been prived of? What would they be left made by the committee, something posi- without? They would be deprived of live was then proposed, which was to be certain bad laws; they would be left brought before the court of proprietors,

without a number of nullities. What as a motion on which it would be their loss, he would ask, would be experienced province to decide.

from the rescinding of laws which were The Chairman inoved. “ That this declared illegal ? The opinion relative to court do approve of the by-law, section these laws was drawn up with much 4, chap. III. as now altered and amended, care and ability by some of the most subject to the confirmation of another eminent counsel in this country; and general court."

that opinion imposed the necessity of imMr. Hume.. I put it, in point of' mediately adopting others; but the idea form, whether the regular course of pro-, of maintaining a bad law, professed and

part bad.

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avgwed to be bad, seemed to him as illo do what he (Mr. H.) recommended. He gical as it was unwise.

advised them to rescind the defective Mr. Impey said, the learned gentleman laws, and then to ordain new ones. But had not stated the fact as it really was. the learned gentleman said, “ let us agree By the former law, part was good, and at once to the amendment.” The con

If it were altogether bad, sequence would be, that, if agreed to, he then the argument of the learned gentle could not proceed immediately to make man would have been correct. But it

an alteration in it; and he had stated should be recollected, that what re that a part of it ought to be altered. He lated to their own officers was good ; but submitied, whether an amendment being that which had reference to the di put from the chair in the House of rectors, was declared to be illegal. He, Commons, any person could move a fresh under these circumstances, conceived the amendment to it. But if, in the first mode proposed by the hon. Chairman to instance, the old law were rescinded, be the best. Another thing struck him then it would be in the power of the provery forcibly, namely, that a part of the prietors to alter the annended law as they new law was bad also.-(Hear hear !) thought proper, With respect to their own servants and Mr. Impey had no particular objection officers, they might disqualify them as to the amended law. He had only stated, they pleased ; but the directors were the what appeared to him to be objectionable servants of the public also, and the pro- in the mode of proceeding, which might prietors could not touch them except deprive them of the valid part of the old where the act of parliament granted the law, before they were provided with a necessary power. Therefore, he thought, substitute. if the mention of the directors were left Mr. Lowndes could easily feel the unout altogether, it would be more pleasant situation in which ihc committee sonant with a legal view of the subject. were placed, who had been appointed to

Mr. Hovorth said, before they pro examine the by-laws of the Company. ceeded farther in this discussion, he felt On this subject, he hegged to read an himself called on to deprecate the tone extract from the speech delivered by Mr. and temper which marked the obser

Burke, on the 11th of February, 1788. vations of tlie hon. director. Let the “ Private enemies," said he, “ will be court consider for what purpose the com made in the course of reformations of mittee were elected from the great body of every kind. They are innumerable ; and proprietors. It was to examine, and if they are the more implacable, because necessary to suggest alterations in the

they will hide the reason of their hatred." by-laws. They were not lawyers ; but, The Chairman.-" submit to the as unprofessional men, they were endea- court, whether the observations of the vouring to do what they could to amend hon. proprietor have any thing to do with the Company's code. For his own part, the question now before us." he did not insist on a single alteration Mr. Lowndes.-" I beg your pardon. that was proposed. He left it to the The chairman of the committee of bycourt to decide on them. The committee laws has stated the delicate situation in had a most unpleasant duty to perform; which he and his colleagues were placed, for when men were called on to inves- and it is a fair subject of observation, tigate abuses and corrcct evils, they must But you come with a resolution to prevent feel their situation awkward and embar all discussion; for, when I mentioned a rassing. They had, to the best of their gentleman who was every way eligible to ability, executed the task imposed on be placed on the committee, you immethem; and he deprecated the tone and diately declared, that that was not the time temper in which the hon. director had

for such a proposition. I should like to taken up the subject. He (Mr. Howorth) know, what is the proper time for me to called on the court to believe, that the

express my sentiments; for I really do committee had acted solely for the public not understand why I am to be cut short good, and that they did not adhere tena on almost all occasions.” ciously to apy alteration they had pro Mr. Howorth, had often been amused, posed. If it could be shewn that it was and sometimes instructed by the hon. improper, they were ready to abandon it; proprietor, he was, therefore, very happy and he hoped the court would do them to hear him in general. But, on this the credit to believe that in doing what occasion, he hoped the court would they had done, they were swayed by a get through the business without many desire to effect a general good, and were speeches. He trusted gentlemen would not actuated by any personal motive. be as concise as possible. (Hear!)

Mr. Loundes said, he would cut the Mic Hume said, the argument offered matter short; for he would put refor. by the learned gentleman within the bar, mation in his pocket. He believed the (Mr. Impey) embraced the very reason directors wished it, and he would not which oright to induce the proprietors to bore them upon such a subject. With

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respect to the delicate situation in which but I am sure, on a moment's reflection, the committee were placed, he might be he will give up the objection this day. allowed to observe, that they ought to be It will facilitate business very much, if treated with every degree of kindness and you, Sir, will condescend to put the moconsideration. They were not composed tion." of directors, but were selected from the Mr. Hume. “ I say it is hostile to the proprietors, that independent body of quick transaction of business, and conmen ; and he thought it was curious that trary to practice. Having offered a mo. they should be told every now and then, tion, I contend that it ought to have been that they were not lawyers ; as if no left with me." men, except they were bred to the legal The Chairman. “I did not know that profession could juvestigate the Com the hon. proprietor had made a motion. pany's laws. In his opinion, those Neither the Deputy-Chairman nor the se persons were best calculated to inves- cretary heard it.” bigate them who did not come with a Mr. Hume. “ I rose and stated, that, professional feeling to the consideration to put the business in a proper course, I of the question ; for such individuals would move that the old law be resciriwere most likely to do justice between the ed ; and the proposition was seconded by directors and the proprietors; and he Mr. Howorth." thought they should own no motive but Mr. R. Jackson. " It is of no COAan anxious desire to forward the inte sequence to entertain the subject in so rests of both parties.

thin a court. Something of the same Mr. Hume. I think what the hon. kind occurred on a former day ; and at chairman of the committee wishes my another time the question may be taken bon, friend to do, is this, to say whether up. Perhaps it would not be right for he considers the proposed law good or me to speak of what had happened before bad. If we proceed to a variety of de- I came into court; but I am auxious to sultory remarks, the summer's day will get through the business as soon as posclose, and the ensuing morning be con sible, and I hope I shall be excused when sumed before the discussion is concluded.” I state, that I understand the inotion

Mr. Lowndes. “ Then I say, that the was made by my hon. friend, and I doubt new law is better than the old one; but whether it can now come through any I am not competent to express an opinion other quarter. It is a general proposition whether it be a good law or not." of right, which I would not have dis

The Chairman. I move that the cussed on such a day as this.” by-law, sec. 4, chap. III., be repealed. I The old law was then rescinded, and beg now to mention, that, supposing the the amended law, on the motion of Mr. present motion for repealing the by-law Howorth, seconded by Mr. Kinnaird, was to be carried, and that the motion for agreed to. substituting the new law were afterwards

On the motion of Mr. Howorth, the negatived, still there would not be any

old law, chap. 6, sec. V., which diswant of a law, because the repeal must be sanctioned by two courts; and until qualified any director who took any fee, the second court confirm the proceeding present, or reward, upon any account re

lating to the affairs of the Company, and of the first, the old law must stand good."

directed that he should forfeit double the Mr. Hume said, the motion just put by the hon. Chairman had been made by to the Company, and one-third to the

amount received, two-thirds to be paid him (Mr. H.) originally, and seconded informer, was repealed; counsel being by a gentleman near him; he therefore of opinion that it was illegal, the disconceived that it ought to have been left qualification of directors being provided with him : but a practice had crept into that court which was unknown in any nalties to be enforced by the by-laws

for by act of parliament, and the peother assembly in Europe. He alluded to the right which the Chairman assumed of being, by the statute of William lit. apmaking motions ; he objected to this propriated solely to the use of the Comsystem before, and he was equally hostile pany. to it now. It was the duty of the Chair.

The amended law,-providing, that a man to put motions when they were

director, so misconducting himself, should

be liable to be removed from his situamade, but not to originate them; and a different course was not pursued in any tion, and that he should “ forfeit to the assembly he had ever attended, except

use of the Company, double the amount that which he now addressed.

received,” was agreed to. tend,” said Mr. Hume, “ that you, the The old by-law, section VI., which Chairman, have no right to move any provided, that any member of the cormotion in this court."

poration offering a fee, present, or reMr. R. Jackson. “ No doubt my hon. ward to any director, should forfeit friend's proposition is sound. It has been double the amount, two-thirds to the mentioned more than once in this place; Company, and one-third to the Informer,

" I con

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