grievous evil; but it was one also of a much less serious and general nature than the evils which would, upon its removal, most likely fol1 low. Upon these grounds he was against the motion of the hon. baronet. The real question for the house now to determine was, whether there were sufficient grounds for retaining in their present force the existing laws against the Roman-catholics? And, having stated to the house why he could not admit the hon. baronet's proposition, either on the ground of the treaty of Limerick or of the abstract right, he would come now to the considerations of prudence and policy, by which he had been led to a similar conclusion. In the first place, he desired to ask the hon. baronet what was the object of the application which he now made to the house? He (Mr. Peel) apprehended that it was to devolve power to those who were now excluded from it; to give to that at present excluded portion of the community a fair share in the framing, the administration, and the execution of laws. The right hon. and learned gentleman of course did not mean to give them a mere barren capacity for office. And if the house should pass this bill, it ought not to be left to fall elsewhere. Nothing would be more unfair than to leave it to be carried into execution at some indefinite period hereafter-to give to these claimants a ticket of admission, as it were, which upon presenting at the portal of the constitution, they should find altogether unavailing; and with which in their hands they should be turned back and excluded by the crown, that ought to be the source of favour to

them. He now came to the main question-that which regarded the prosperity of Ireland, whether, under the present circumstances, the proposed measure of relief would conduce to the restoration of tranquillity in that country. If he (Mr. Peel) thought it would-if he could persuade himself that having passed it, there would be an end of those unhappy animosities which all persons must unite in lamenting-he for one would not oppose any mere theory of the constitution to such an immense practical advantage. But it was because he doubted whether the removal of these disabilities would have the beneficial effect of reestablishing that tranquillity, and composing the minds of the Irish people; and because he thought that if this could not be done, they had no right to exert the authority of parliament to remove such disabilities-it was on those grounds that he opposed the motion. But were these civil disabilities the cause of those disorders which had so long ravaged Ireland? If they were, he really wished some hon. gentleman would tell him how it happened that in the province of Ulster, where the numbers of the Roman-catholics and of the protestants were said to be more nearly balanced than in any other part of Ireland, the insurrection act had never once been enforced? But, in fact, the removal of disabilities, to the extent to which that removal had yet been carried, had never, hitherto, had the effect of tranquillizing the people. In 1792, the Romancatholics approached the legislature of Ireland; and on that occasion they confined themselves to asking for admission to the magis

tracy,

tracy, and extension of the elective franchise to freeholds of 12l. a year. They asked, at that time, nothing further; but more than they had asked was conceded to them. The elective franchise was confirmed to them to the full extent in which it was enjoyed by the protestants; and forty-shilling catholic freeholders were created, in all respects on the same footing as protestant freeholders; and, besides this, Roman-catholics were admitted to serve on grand juries. But, since these concessions, had the religious animosities of Ireland been at all allayed? But he knew what hon. gentlemen on the other side would probably answer; they would say nothing effectual could be done while any thing was withheld; and that the true secret of conciliation consisted in rendering Roman-catholics and protestants equal in all civil respects, and in removing all catholic disabilities whatever." Here the right hon. secretary went on to argue on the impossibility of satisfying the Roman-catholics, even if their claims should be conceded; that the distribution of offices was made without partiality or favour on the part of the crown and of government; and that when there were no longer any legal grounds of exclusion, they would consider themselves to be not rightly dealt with. They would always entertain a jealousy of the government, and always consider the exclusion of a Roman-catholic, however accidental, a personal measure. Taking the data which had been supplied by the right hon. gentleman and the hon. baronet, it would appear that there were in Ireland about 4,500,000 Roman-catholics, and 1,800,000 protestants. Here

1825.

was an enormous disproportion of numbers. But the property possessed by the protestants was, as to that possessed by the catholics. (he was speaking of landed property), in the proportion of about twenty to one. It had, indeed, been stated as high as 49 or 50 to one; but perhaps it was safer to take the former estimate. Now, was he to be told, that, retaining the religion of the minority as the religion of the state, it would be safe to allow the majority to come into an equal participation with them of rights and power? It was also to be recollected, that the temporalities of that state religion were once possessed by that majority: and as long as that was the case, it was absurd to suppose that the Roman-catholics would be content with what they would get by the mere concession of their claims to be relieved of civil disabilities. It was a mockery to imagine that civil privileges of that kind alone would satisfy them. As to what had been suggested of the security of an oath to be taken, he (Mr. Peel) did not at all mean to say, that he would not believe a Roman-catholic upon his oath; but whatever he might propose and intend to do at the time of taking such oath, it must still be asked, with what feelings (if he was actuated by the ordinary feelings of a man) he must look at the protestant religion, and its church, and its clergy? Would he look with the same eyes as we must ever do upon the principal epochs of our history? At the reformation, for instance, and the revolution? Must he not regard the separation of our church, and the suppression of his own, as acts altogether unjustifiable? And yet

it was proposed to admit the Roman-catholic, moved with feelings of this sort, to a participation in the privileges of the protestant community. With regard to the case which had been put in respect of Charles II., (the right hon. secretary then proceeded to observe), there might be just as good grounds for creating restrictions to guard against the evil effects of a monarch's occasional conformity, or otherwise, to the established religion, as for the existing exclusion of catholics. Now, what would the bill which was to be brought in go to? It would admit the catholic to office if the king approved the appointment, and in that case he would come in on equal terms with the protestant-in all respects as free and unfettered. The house was told that the effect of the law of exclusion was, to extinguish the aspiration of many a heartperhaps "pregnant with celestial fire"-and to paralyze the exertions of many a hand, fitted to have sustained "the rod of empire." But the question would become, if the bill were to pass, not so much capacity for, as the right to office. (Here the right hon. gentleman demonstrated the injustice which the Roman-catholic would have to complain of, if, after developing in parliament, all the talents and the zeal which might recommend him to the most important posts in an administration-such as first lord of the treasury, or one of the secretaries of state the king, acting upon his right of sanctioning or withholding his appointment, were to refuse to consent to his entering upon the discharge of such high official functions.) Would that be the best or most gracious exercise

of its prerogative on the part of the crown? And yet, whatever might be his talents, could it be maintained that such a person would be well qualified to advise the crown upon matters connected with the welfare of the church of England? He (Mr. Peel) thought not; and it would be much better, by keeping to the existing law, to prevent difficulties of this kind, than to leave the whole matter so to be dealt with by the discretion of the crown. The right hon. secretary then went on to contend that it was impossible to call upon him altogether to lay out of view the spirit and temper of the Roman-catholic religion itself; and, turning to these, he confessed that he looked to their re-admission to power with the greatest jealousy and alarm. In that case, too, the connexion of the Roman-catholic religion with the state would become one quite of a new character. Before the reformation, it was attached to the state; since the reformation, it had been tolerated, but nothing more. But now, he understood, it was proposed, in the event of this re-admission, to grant it an establishment, and funds to be voted by the government for the support of its clergy. The right honourable gentleman next animadverted on the multiplied inconveniences, and animosities, and ill-feeling, that must arise from two establishments, with almost similar hierarchies, the Roman-catholic prelacy boasting its apostolic transmission and representation. And in proof of the little alteration which the spirit of the Romancatholic religion seemed to have experienced from time, notwithstanding all its asserted illumination in the 19th century, he read a

passage,

rate.

quoted several " from the number of cures performed by his highness in the above-mentioned city." (Wurtzburgh.) Her highness the Princess Matilda Von Schwartzenburgh was among the cures. She had been lame from her 8th to her 17th year, and had vainly expended on medical aid 80,000 florinscured by the prince's intercessions. He (Mr. Peel) inferred, that the Wurtzburgh doctors who got 80,000 florins had had a very fine time of it, and that the name of Prince Hohenlohe could not be very popular among them at any But at Bamberg the prince's success was yet more miraculous. Four sisters, who had all been confined with lameness for ten years, were cured. Counsellor Jacob, a counsellor of state, who had not stirred out of his chamber for some years, suddenly accompanied his doctor from the third story to the street-door. A beneficed clergyman was cured of the gout while passing through the streets of Bamberg, without ever getting out of his carriage; and besides these famed persons, an upholsterer, a saddler, and a stonemason, had been all operated on by similar miracles. (A laugh.) Hon. gentlemen might laugh, if they pleased, at so much credulity; but they should know, that

in no part of the world were the wonder-workings of Prince Hohenlohe talked of with more profound respect and faith than in Ireland. The right hon. gentleman next read from a book signed J. K. M., but said to be written by Dr. Doyle, being a communication (The Encyclical Letter) to the whole Roman - catholic communion of Ireland, of the rescript of Leo the Twelfth, the present pope, addressed to the bishops, &c., complaining of the mischief effected by bible societies; and containing the passage"The power of temporal princes will, we trust in the Lord, come to your assistance, whose interests, as experience shows, are always concerned when your's are in danger; for it never hath happened that the things which are Cæsar's are given unto Cæsar, if the things which are God's be not given unto God." The right hon. gentleman having commented on the singular bearing of this passage, and on the perfect unchanged tone of the catholic church in all things, said, that if any thing was wanting to convince him of the necessity of retaining the oath of supremacy in this country, he should find it in the admission of such letters as these. The concessions proposed to be made, he was of opinion, would not allay the animosities of the Irish, or satisfy their demands; as, indeed, Dr. Doyle himself seemed to think when he talked of the " ulterior measures," after catholic emancipation, that would be necessary. What was meant by " ulterior measures?" But so true it was, that "Still to new heights their restless wishes

The right honourable gentleman then expressed his regret at differing from the right honourable and other friends with whom he was accustomed to vote; and at the same time his anxiety that penal laws should be abolished, together with offensive processions, and all other local causes of discontent and heart-burning. He did not deny that great evil might have been done by the policy which had been formerly pursued towards Ireland, but that was no reason why the measure which was now urged should be adopted. It was no reason why he should change the opinions he had formed upon a serious and firm conviction. It was the duty of public men to act on their own impressions, and not to defer to authority, however high it might be, while they were unconvinced by argument. He was not convinced by the arguments he had heard, and he should, therefore, not defer to the authority by which they were enforced. Without dwelling on the objections as to the time at which this motion was proposed, or its present expediency, he openly announced his objection to its principle. He should pursue the course he hitherto uniformly and consistently persisted in, and give his decided opposition to the measure.

Mr. Brougham then rose, and said, he could not allow the speech of the right hon. gent., nor the new topics which had been introduced in it, to pass unnoticed, notwithstanding the late hour of the night. The arguments which those who supported the motion had urged, remained untouched by any thing the right hon. gentleman had said. The speech of

the right hon. the secretary of state for foreign affairs, whom he did not now see in his place, in which there was more of force and effect concentrated in a small space than in any speech which he (Mr. Brougham) ever remembered to have heard, remained unanswered, because he believed it was unanswerable. He had been intrusted with a petition from the catholics, praying that the privilege of being eligible to serve in parliament might be granted to them; but he had declined to present that petition until the motion before the house should be disposed of. If, as he fervently hoped and confidently expected, the decision of the house should be in favour of the first petition, it would preclude the necessity of his presenting the second. He would proceed to follow the right hon. gentleman in the argument into which, as he said, he had been dragged. When the right hon. gentleman supposed that the hon. baronet (Sir F. Burdett), in alluding to the treaty of Limerick, meant to rest upon it the strongest part of the case which he had to state, he was mistaken. The hon. baronet only touched upon it because it was in the petition, and without laying any greater stress upon it than it deserved. No one could deny, that in all the stages of the question it was very important feature. All that the honourable baronet meant to prove by it, he thought he had fully succeeded in.

For his own part, he (Mr. Brougham) should make short work of it. It was now 130 years since that treaty was made. It had been violated; by whom he cared not; but the wrong done by

that