that acted with a combined prin ciple of interference in the due administration of justice, whether really intending to do good, or not, signified nothing for his argument-that an assembly so constituted was inconsistent, not alone with the peace of Ireland, but, he repeated, of any other country in the world, was a proposition which he was thoroughly prepared to maintain. It was impossible not to look at the circumstances under which this establishment in Ireland had been formed. The people of Ireland might naturally enough think they laboured under certain grievances for which they ought to seek redress from the legislature. They might be dissatisfied with the remaining part of the civil exclusions which affected them-they might feel the necessity and the justice of coming to parliament to make their case known, where alone redress could constitutionally be sought; but could any man who looked at all that had been done for Ireland within the last few years, not confess thisthat more had been done-properly done for promoting the peace and happiness of that country within a short space of time, than had been done for centuries before by preceding governments? This had been done by the government and the parliament. The whole revenue system of Ireland had been completely reformed, and to the entire satisfaction of those who were loudest in their complaints under that heada reduction of taxes had been afforded to Ireland to an unparalleled degree-her direct taxes were swept away, and she paid fewer imposts than almost any

other country in Europe, while, at the same time, she had an equal benefit of the market in England, the country which had taken upon itself the whole of her (the Irish) debt. The administration of justice had been also reformed-the magistracy of Ireland had been reformed, and petty sessions established as the best security for the public against legal wrong; and every disposition had been shown by the government to suppress those societies which had a tendency to produce civil dissensions among the people. He stated those facts as a proof of the kind, the friendly, and affectionate disposition of the government of the united kingdom towards Ireland, the people of which they were so disposed to treat with so much liberality, indulgence, and favour. He only stated what had been done, to illustrate the feeling for Ireland which prevailed, and to show the absence of any great crying evil that required, for promoting public inquiry, the establishment of a perpetual organ, like the Catholic Association. Yet, in the midst of this state of things, had that body been organized, and assumed a far greater influence and importance than had before been exercised by the Catholic Convention, avoiding however the letter of the law enacted for the suppression of the latter, but preserving at the same time, virtually and fully, the evil of delegation, against which that law was directed. The intent was evident, and proved by their own. acts, and the evasion would be complete if the legislature did not interpose and assert its proper authority. In arguing this question, he meant to avoid any dis

cussion

cussion of the particular proceedings of the Catholic Association, or making any inferences arising out of them. He believed that body of men was constituted much the same as any other body of that sort could be any where else, and that their proceedings were of the same nature as those of any other body of a similar kind. Bodies of this kind were composed in general of various materials. Many innocent and well-disposed men were usually to be found among them, and the great majority never paused to contemplate the evils to which their proceedings led. His objection, therefore, to the Catholic Association was, not on account of any individual peculiarity which belonged to it, but that no such body could exist any where without producing these evils. He

agreed that it would be harsh and often unfair to analyze parts of the proceedings of bodies so constituted; for their necessary and inevitable consequence was, he repeated, evil. He knew they must be irregular and uncertain, often intemperate; and the natural result was, that they hurried onward, by indefinite means, to indefinite objects, and produced evils without end, never contemplated by those who began the work. Therefore he should only dwell on the constitution of such bodies, to show that however dangerous any where, they became peculiarly so in Ireland, where, from the inflammable nature of party spirit, so fatal to that country, they must inevitably aggravate every species of animosity, and convulse society by the conflict of every faction armed against its peace. This was the unhappy

ingredient which entered into the very formation of societies of this description. Did they believe any such body could exist without those attendant evils? Some noble lords might think this a good instrument, or engine, for effecting a particular purpose-the best way, for instance, in their judgment, of promoting catholic emancipation; but he would even ask these noble lords if they thought a body like this would stop with any specific question, and whether they must not admit the greatest evil of its constitution was its undefined objects and permanent sittings. They must recollect, that the association had set no limits to its sphere of operation— they had framed no specific object, after the accomplishment of which they were to disembody themselves. On the contrary, they had heard, (he knew not on what authority, although the statement had certainly gone forth) that some communication had been made to this association, to inquire whether, in the event of the catholic question being carried, they would separate; and their answer was, that that concession would not satisfy them. From this it would appear that there was to be no end to their proceedings, and that if the professed aim of their original establishment were accomplished, they had still to prolong their existence for ulterior and unknown objects. He said this without reference to the individuals, or this particular body; and repeated that the nature of the evil was in the unavoidable constitution of this convention, and the consequences which must ensue, and which no government could or ought to tolerate.

He

defied any noble lord opposite to prove that such a body were ever permitted to exist, coeval with a regular government. They might patch up acts of parliament-six together, if they pleased, and say, have you not permitted this thing to be done, and the other; but he challenged them to show him when and where such a body as this, in all parts and character, had ever been suffered to exist in the previous history of the country. He would pass over the details of the Catholic Association, their discussions and debates, and come to the material feature of their system-to that which they called, not the Roman-catholic subscription, but the catholic rent. What was this rent? The very notion of the name, its essence, nature, and definition, were quite different from subscription; rent implied previous obligation, and he could hardly think that so expressive a name had been hit upon so accidentally. But call it rent, or subscription, or what they would, still by this arrangement a steady communication was kept up by the association with every parish throughout the kingdom, and money obtained voluntarily or involuntarily, for his argument he cared not which, raised or endeavoured to be raised from the whole catholic population of Ireland. He would assert that such a raising of money, however called, could not be properly termed voluntary. Though there existed no legal right to enforce it, yet where the country was cast into factions, and the appeal made to their sincerity, their zeal, or their passions, it was a farce to call it any thing short of compulsory. Who

1825.

were the instruments for carrying into effect the collcction ?-the catholic clergy. Where the places for collection?-the catholic chapels. Who, then, who knew the existing connexion between the catholic priesthood and their flock, could doubt what was the real nature of this rent? He had even heard of an instance where a peasant had been actually distrained, for non-payment of this rent; but the quarter sessions had interposed, and given him protection from the illegal exaction. He did not dwell on this, to press it more than it was fairly worth in his argument, nor did he wish to touch upon the attendant circumstances, the registration, whether in black or red books; for in such cases, where the whole population were to pay, each man knew how far his neighbour had contributed or withheld his contribution, and each was a check upon the other, without any extensive machinery of account keeping. Some paid this money for religion-others for politics; and he believed that nine out of every ten subscribers paid because they could not help it, and to avoid being looked upon with an evil eye by any of their neighbours. He appealed to every man's good sense, of whatever party in this country, whether such a system as that which he had described could be tolerated? Let them see what an instrument such an association might become, with permanency for its character, and revenue at its disposal, avowedly interfering in the administration of justice-(again he repeated, he cared not with what intent, good or evil)-and the greater the influence of the

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body,

He

body, the greater the evil). Take the millions of population said to be under their control, and let them be estimated at their own stated amount, and then, he said, the larger the number the greater the danger. He should ever remember a saying full of wisdom which he had heard from Mr. Fox, in the house of commons, on some question, he believed, relative to the Dissenters. "I hate," said that eminent individual," the tyranny of the few over the many; but there is one thing which I hate and abhor still more- -the tyranny of the many over the few." applied this wise saying to the present case, and asserted, that the more formidable the body, the more intolerable its existence was capable of becoming in the state. He now came to two arguments which had been used in the course of these discussions: first, it was said this association had done no harm; and secondly, by others it was declared to have done good. As to the first, he would appeal to those who lived in Ireland to say, how exasperating had not been the effect of this association upon party spirit throughout the country, and how accumulative factious feelings of all kinds had not become. With respect to the second argument-its doing good by promoting, as had been asserted, the tranquillity of the country-he was prepared to deny it: if, however, it had done so, he should not be the less disposed to denounce the dangerous tendency of the association on that account. If a body of this description had the power of promoting tranquillity, it must equally be capable of producing disturbance at its own will and pleasure; and

in either case, he did not choose to rest the peace and tranquillity of the state upon the prudence, discretion, or temper of any such body of men. Again he begged to observe that he did not accuse this association, or any of the particular individuals who composed it, of intending harm to their country; but if he could have supposed there were amongst them any who meditated mischief, he should give them no credit for the avowal of their peaceable intentions; for the experience of human conduct showed, that no body of men were more loud in their desire for peace, more clamorous against those who threatened to disturb it, than those who were deeply conspiring against the state, but who waited to ripen and mature their machinations. He referred to the recent history of Ireland in the year 1798, and there they would find that the principal men who were engaged in the rebellion of that year, were, up to the moment of the explosion, preaching peace to their fellow-countrymen. It was a curious fact, that the party whose rebellion was put down, attributed their defeat to the premature violence which had roused them into action before their prearranged time; and an honourable member of the Irish house of commons (we believe Mr. Beresford) had taken credit for himself and his party having been instrumental in prematurely coercing the people into open insurrection, the better to ensure its suppression before they became too deeply and extensively organized for revolt. So that it was by no means reasonable to conclude, that the avowal of men's intentions was to be taken

exactly

exactly in the manner in which they chose to put them forth. The power of the association was alike dangerous, whether they used it for the tranquillity or the agitation of that country. As to the present state of Ireland, it was owing in a great degree to the measures of its government. But he ascribed not its present peace and prosperity to one or to another. It was only to be ascribed to the returning prosperity of the empire. Under other circumstances, the spirit of opposition had a different tendency. Temporary distress then led to petitions and meetings to propagate reform in the institutions-reform in the parliament-reform in the financial policy. All these vanished at the returning prosperity, which engaged the industry of the country in the increase of commerce and in agriculture, and provided for the people more useful employment. In a qualified degree, Ireland had shared those new advantages. There, however, there was a powerful check to the growing prosperity, in the habitual vice of idleness which afflicted the people. The industry of the country, aided by its capital, would prompt them, and urge them forward to something better. In the mean time they must be let alone - their minds must not be influenced by the discussion of these angry questions. He owned that there was difficulty in legislating upon this point. He was not sure that this bill would prove to be a sufficient remedy, but he thought it not unlikely. In 1796, a noble and learned friend of his had brought in a bill to prevent seditious meetings. It was then averred that the bill would be evaded, and he himself had been

They

led, by a very ingenious speech which he had heard in the other house, to believe that it would be evaded. The bill never had, in any one instance, been evaded—it was perfectly effectual to its purposes. The same argument had been applied, followed by the same consequences, to one of the six acts. He could not persuade himself that this bill would be defeated in Ireland, after parliament had solemnly pronounced its opinion upon the law, and given the whole confidence which the expression of that opinion could inspire to the law itself. But if it were likely to prove ineffectual, he would still advise the house to adopt it, for this reason he knew the consequences of their not putting down the Catholic Association. must expect counter-associations. They could not say to the catholics" You may associate;" and to the protestants-" You must not;"-they could not allow the catholics to combine, and forbid it to the protestants. Let them not suppose that the protestants, though fewer, were so poor in numbers, wealth, and power, and means, not to combine. This was the tendency of nature-one combination must produce another. In what a state would that country be, when arrayed in two great hostile parties? How could there be any effectual administration of justice? Their principle must be to put down all associations, or to permit all. Let them at least have it to say that they had done their best to secure the tranquillity of Ireland. His noble and learned friend had wished that the Catholic Association had been expressly named. He thought it better that it was not named. It would

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