He urged the weight of the opinions repeatedly given by Marquis Wellesley, though held back by administration, to show that concession and conciliation should go before this measure of coercion. The Catholic Association had no intention but to submit; though it was certainly a question whether the revolution did not secure them the right of resistance to a certain degree. He exhorted the house to consider well the danger of endeavouring to put what had been called an extinguisher on the claims advanced by the association. Whether the association were legal or not, their conduct, and that of the catholic body, proved against all the arguments to the contrary, that they were capable of using the advantages of representation in a wholesome and constitutional manner. The noble earl opposite was alarmed at the collection of "the rent," and showed an instance to prove that it was nominally voluntary, and not really so. He had been given to understand since, that no such process had ever issued as that mentioned by the noble earl. As to the mode of collection, he could speak to instances of subscriptions in protestant churches, where something very like "a red and black book" did exist; where men had subscribed "voluntarily" for fear of being "marked men." Still there was no proof of the illegality of the practice in either case. He could not see any reason why the Catholic Association should be viewed with so much terror and alarm. Its proceedings were open. Every facility was given to reporters attending them, so much so, that it was upon the evidence of a reporter, that the attorney

general for Ireland attempted to get up a case against its leader, Mr. O'Connell. Was that gentleman, he would ask, punished, convicted, or even brought to trial for the language he used? No such thing-the bill against him was ignored even upon the evidence tendered by the attorneygeneral. This was decisive proof that there was nothing faulty in the conduct of the Catholic Association. As, therefore, no fault could be found with its actions, those who disliked its proceedings looked to its words; and having found the unfortunate words, "by your hate to orangemen," in a long and able address which it had put forth, seized upon it with the utmost exultation. He fully agreed with a noble lord, that the words in question meant little more than "by your hatred to persecution;" and if so, nothing could be more harmless than the adjuration which they contained. He was happy to see, that notwithstanding the efforts which had been made to excite the prejudices of the people against catholic emancipation, they had been attended with imperfect success: they had dwindled into insignificance, when compared with their violence some years ago. At that time, every nook and corner of our streets bore the mark of "no popery;" and, unfortunately for the cause of religion, the feeling of the people went along with that infuriated cry. At present the same hand-writing was on the wall, but the people cared little or nothing about it. Day and Martin, Dr. Eady, and Hunt, with his roasted corn and matchless blacking, beat it fairly from the field. For his own part, he verily believed, that if their lordships were

to

to pass a bill granting perfect emancipation to the catholics, it would either make no impression on the country, or be received as a great and positive blessing. For his own part, he could not speak with common patience of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers on that important question. That portion of them which wielded the lightning and guided the thunder of the state, which directed its energies and commanded its bayonets, that portion of them, he was sorry to say, was decidedly anti-catholic. It was not enough, however, for the cabinet to differ from itself, it differed also from its royal master, and by its obstinacy placed him in a most distressing situation. As king of Hanover, he was all conciliation; as king of Ireland, he was all coercion. To the catholics of Hanover, he said "ay;" to the catholics of Ireland, he said

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no," upon the very same subject. It was true that his Majesty had it in his power to dismiss such advisers whenever he thought proper. A breath could unmake as easily as it had made them. It was said, however, that it would be impossible to get an administration which would act with unanimity on this question, and that it would be as difficult to form a cabinet that was wholly anti-catholic, as one that was wholly catholic in its politics. He did not know how that might be; but of this he was sure, that a ministry which was entirely anti-catholic would not be able to continue in office for a single session. He was sure that the question of emancipation might be carried with ease by any ministry that would act upon it with sincerity and open-heartedness. He knew of no event which

would create more satisfaction in Ireland, than such a consummation. to the wishes of its catholic population. It would call forth the shout of Io triumphe and Io Paan in every direction, and would unite our catholic brethren to our side, in the strongest bonds of amity and affection. Capital would then flow from every side into that country, which had been so long blest by the bounty of heaven, and cursed by the misgovernment of man. Tranquillity would be restored; confidence would be revived; comfort would once be introduced to the fire-side of a brave and contented population. The general feeling would be "Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus."

The noble lord might smile, but the people of Ireland, though they drank deeply now, would fill their bumpers still higher than before, in honour of so great and glorious a consummation. That it might not be long delayed, was his ardent and his constant wish for he did not know any measure which would tend more to increase the power and consolidate the stability of the British empire. The noble earl then concluded by declaring his intention of voting against this bill.

The Earl of Gosford was opposed to the bill. If the Catholic Association had been left to itself, it would have died a natural death by this time. He did not consider it calculated to produce much mischief; certainly not so much as the measure which was intended to put it down. The remedy, in his opinion, was a great deal worse than the disease. He was convinced that the only way to confer a real benefit on Ireland

was

was to grant emancipation to its catholic population.

The Duke of Sussex said, that though he always felt considerable embarrassment in addressing their lordships, he had never felt greater embarrassment than he then did, in declaring his decided opposition to the present motion. The duty which he owed to his country compelled him to stand up as the opponent of the present measure, which he conceived to be utterly inconsistent both with the principles and with the practice of liberty. No reasons had been shown for passing it. Information had been asked for; but none had been given. The speech from the throne had told them that it was expedient that such a law should be enacted, but no mention had been made of any of the circumstances on which the necessity for it depended. The only reason given for it was, the notoriety of the evil it was intended to put down. He begged their lordships to consider what notoriety was. It was something or nothing; it was every body's, and therefore nobody's business. The information it conveyed was mere hearsay, and was evidence which would not be received in any court in the country. Ought it, therefore, to be admitted by their lordships in so important a case as the present, where the liberty of the subject was so materially concerned?

A noble lord had illustrated the argument he (the Duke of Sussex) had just used, in a surprisingly happy manner. His lordship had said that he had been told that the catholics would not be satisfied, even if emancipation were granted to them. Were their lordships to be satisfied of the

truth of that assertion on mere hearsay evidence? Certainly not. He therefore contended, that if the association must be put down, evidence should be offered in support of the various accusations which had been made against it. He agreed with a noble lord who had preceded him, that the easiest way of putting down this association would be by granting the object for which it petitioned. The noble earl might smile again, if he pleased, at that declaration; but in uttering it, he spoke the conviction of his mind, founded upon the experience of history, which showed that complaint always ceased as soon as grievance was redressed. He had heard with regret the observation of a noble earl, that this association, though it had done much good, might have done much harm. He would advise the noble earl to look to facts rather than to probabilities. The noble earl had endeavoured to illustrate his argument by saying, that a candle was very useful in its way, but was very dangerous when placed too near a muslin curtain. He allowed it to be so, but he would not on that account extinguish the candle and leave the room in utter darkness. The noble earl, in arguing the propriety of this measure, had touched lightly on the catholic question. Now, he believed that the propriety of this measure could not be properly discussed without entering at some length into that question, which was closely connected with

it.

Since the year 1778, great privileges had been granted to the catholics; and he believed that those grants, so far from inflicting any harm, had conferred great benefit on the country. He had bestowed

bestowed much pains upon the consideration of this question, and he was convinced, from the various debates which had taken place upon it, that it had been the intention of the legislature to throw open the door of the constitution to all classes of his Majesty's subjects, as soon as it could be done without difficulty and danger. He was convinced that the sooner the catholics were admitted within the pale of the constitution, the better would it be for the tranquillity and stability of the empire. He made that statement from a recollection of the grateful manner in which former concessions had been received by the catholics of Ireland. As soon as the first concessions were made, in 1778, Ireland furnished us with 82,000 seamen, and so enabled us to recover our superiority on the ocean, from which we had been driven to the shelter and confinement of our ports. When he recollected that circumstance--when he looked to the immense force which we now kept up in Ireland--when he considered that measures of conciliation would tranquillize Ireland, and so enable them to dispense with that force altogether, or to employ it in some other portion of the empire-when he reflected that economy was the order of the day, and that the people had a right to expect some further reduction of the taxation which the war had entailed upon them, he could see many reasons why the house should emancipate the catholics, and not one reason to the contrary. He was prepared to contend, that the laws which had deprived the catholics of the political privileges which belonged to their protestant fellow-subjects were in

troduced originally for very wise political reasons. The Pope was at that time possessed of considerable power. There was a catholic sovereign in existence who had been very properly driven from the throne on account of his arbitrary notions. That sovereign, on retiring to Ireland, had obtained support from the catholics of that country - -a circumstance which naturally excited great jealousy in the minds of the people of England. The penal laws against the catholics were therefore dictated by the paramount necessity of securing the liberty of the country by placing a succession of protestants on the throne. The danger, however, which had led to the enactment of those laws had now disappeared, and the laws ought to disappear with it. There was now no popish aspirant to the throne. The consequence of the Pope was gone; and, in spite of what was now doing on the continent, would never again attain sufficient strength to become formidable. He recollected the noble earl opposite saying, during the war,

"We must not grant emancipation now, because the Pope is in the clutches of Napoleon, and may be compelled to use his influence against our interests." He had laughed at the argument at that time as unworthy serious consideration; and he must now laugh at the argument which had succeeded it, because, though dissimilar in its nature, it was equally ridiculous in its consequence. The noble earl now said, "We must be afraid of the Pope now, because the sovereigns who form the Holy Alliance have restored him to his dominions, and given him back a portion of his former power."