As a

them out in their fears. proof that the character of this body had not changed, Mr. Bright strongly recommended members who had not already done it, to read over the speech of Sir S. Romilly on the persecution of the protestants which took place in 1815 in the south of France, and they would require nothing more to convince them that the essence and meaning of popery were always the same, and must ever remain so, wherever or whenever it was restored to its former power and pride.

On the motion of Sir F. Burdett for the second reading of the catholic relief bill,

Mr. Brownlow said that he was particularly anxious that this question should be treated solely on the ground of its own merits, and that it should be divested of all that soreness which might be connected with the recollections of this painful subject. Why should he disguise for one sentence longer the expression of an opinion which he had expressed in private, and which he was desirous now publicly to avow? It was this that circumstanced as we were with respect to Ireland, it was impossible to remain. The two parties whose dissensions were so fatal to the repose of that country were little removed from an actual state of contest. Something must be done, and the important question became, what that something was to be. Could we go back? Could we re-enact laws like those which had before been tried? We could not, for innumerable reasons, which it was unnecessary to specify, and one of which was as good as a thousand-because it was impossible. There was one only remedy

1825.

for the distressing situation in which the people of Ireland were placed-it was conciliation. He would not take upon himself to declare that the unhappy state of Ireland was the result of the defeat of the Roman-catholic question, or of a thousand concomitant circumstances; but it could not be denied, that with the postponement of the success of that measure, the disgraces and dissensions of Ireland had increased. Strange, therefore, as it might appear for him to say so, he was anxious to obtain some great national settlement of the affairs of that country, and he was prepared to go to all prudent, almost to all practicable lengths, to attain that desirable object. If he were asked whether he still felt his ancient enmity against the Roman-catholics-he did wrong to call it enmity, his opposition did not deserve that character-if, then, he were asked whether he still entertained the same opposition which had hitherto marked his conduct towards the claims of six millions of his Romancatholic fellow-countrymen, he would reply certainly notquite the contrary.". Many of the grounds on which he formerly professed to stand in his opposition were removed. Many of the arguments which he had been in the habit of using, and of hearing used by others, could no longer be applied to the question; and as for himself he knew not what other course he could take than to avow the fact. If on inquiry he had found himself to have been in error with respect to his former opinions, it became him to make the only atonement in his powerto acknowledge that he had been deceived. He was aware how

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frequently a change of opinion was in that house made the subject of ridicule and suspicion, and how seldom a charitable presumption of sincerity was entertained in favour of the person who made it, and therefore he would endeavour to set himself right in the eyes of the house, though in doing so he might perhaps display the zeal of a new convert, which would appear extraordinary to those who like himself had been misled by old prejudices, and he might add, somewhat misled by the overdone statements and heated language of the catholics themselves. The result of his recent inquiries on the subject was, that the opposers of the catholic question had long stood upon mere imaginary differences. That conclusion had been forced upon his mind; and if he were not to act upon it, he should be most false to himself and to the county which sent him to that house. He would not enter upon the question of the value of the Roman-catholic religion as a form of worship-"Judge not, lest ye be judged"-there was eminent wisdom in that maxim when applied between one religion and another, as well as between individuals. The way in which he would consider the Romancatholic religion was this-did it involve practical consequences detracting from the allegiance which subjects owed to their government, or weakening the constitutional authority which the government should have over those who were placed beneath its sway? The strongest objection which had been made against the Roman-catholic religion was, that it created an extraneous power in the state, through

the influence which it gave to the pope. It appeared to him that the change which had of late years taken place in the political situation of the pope had materially affected the question. When he looked at the present conduct of the pope, he could scarcely recognize the shadow of his former power. What had become of the power which sported with crowned heads, laid kingdoms under contribution, and excommunicated princes? The genius of the age, the David of modern times, had destroyed it. If it were true, as had always hitherto been asserted, that the Roman-catholics of Ireland owed a divided allegiance to their king-if it were not true that the king possessed their full and perfect allegiance, then he would say, that the Roman-catholics were still fit objects of suspicion, and were persons who ought to be excluded from all offices of trust, and from a participation in the legislature; but if the evidence which had been given before the committees appointed by parliament on the subject of Ireland were true, he saw no reason why those two points should not be conceded to the catholics. It was upon the evidence given before the committees, he did not hesitate to declare it, that his change of opinion was founded.

If there was any man in that house who doubted the truth of that evidence, he hoped he would have the hardihood to stand up in his place and say so, in order that the grounds of his antipathy to the catholic question might be known, and, if possible, explained away. If the evidence given before the committees were false, the house might at once

dissolve

dissolve those committees, and declare that upon the mystery of Irish affairs no light could be thrown. If the high-born and talented men who had come over to this country, to guide parliament by the light of their know ledge, had, as he had heard basely insinuated, endeavoured to establish one great and devilish lie, then, indeed, his conversion had proceeded upon false grounds. But that such was really the case, he could never for a moment be lieve. He made common cause with all the distinguished persons who had come from Ireland to give evidence; and if their evi dence were true, he was of opinion that no argument could be main tained in opposition to the claims of the catholics, and that any person who should attempt to raise one must be covered with confusion. Dr. Doyle was asked in the committee whether by the doctrine of the Roman - catholic church the pope had any right to intermeddle with the rights of the king, and the allegiance which catholics owed to him. The reverend gentleman answered in the negative: and on then being asked what would be the consequence if the pope were to do so, he replied, that the catholic clergy would preach to their flocks, that it was their duty to oppose the pope. The Archbishop of Dublin gave similar evidence. The propositions which were overthrown by the answers of Dr. Doyle, formed the most important ground of the opposition which had been, and still was, offered to granting the claims of the catholics. Dr. Doyle was likewise asked, whether the pope had the power of granting dispensation for crimes: he re

1

plied, certainly not, and that he considered such a doctrine impious. The reverend gentleman also stated, that the catholics had purchased a great part of the confiscated property. How was it possible, then, to suppose that the catholics would join in any insurrectionary movements, by which they could not fail to be sufferers? With respect to those important points, all the difficulties which he had formerly felt to making concessions to the catholics were removed. He was not called upon to consider the Roman-catholics as religionists. All he was bound to do, was to ascertain that their spiritual were clearly separated from their temporal concerns. He did in his heart believe that to be the case, and therefore he was disposed to approve of the concessions which it was proposed to make to them, and which he thought none but the timid could be alarmed at. He trusted that he had somewhat succeeded in making known the grounds on which he wished it to be understood that his change of opinion had taken place. He was prepared to give his vote for the measure of the hon. baronet in its present stage, reserving to himself the right of objecting to particular portions of it in the committee. He, however, did not think that the bill before the house was the most perfect which could be offered to the approbation of parliament, as applicable to the present circumstances of Ireland. The two great objects which were recommended by almost every witness called before the committee, was to make a provision for the catholic clergy, and to grant to catholics the exercise of

the elective franchise. He thought that those measures would prove most beneficial. He did not, however, agree with those who were of opinion that the making of a provision for the catholic clergy should be considered as the discharge of a debt of obligation to that body, for their efforts to preserve the peace of Ireland. On the contrary, when he considered the habits of intimacy in which the catholic clergy lived with their flocks, he thought that they had done much less towards the preservation of the peace of the country than they might have done. It was the object of government to bring all religious sects in connexion with the state. For what reason, then, should not this policy be observed with respect to the catholic clergy? When the Roman-catholic clergymen should find that there would no longer be any interference with the independence of their religion, they would, like the presbyterian clergymen, be good allies of the state. The proposed alteration respecting the exercise of the elective franchise in Ireland, in every way in which it could be viewed, moral or political, would, in his opinion, be productive of great benefit. The protestant portion of the people of Ireland, who had been represented to be discontented with the proposed measure, were the very persons who had called for it. This circumstance afforded him the greatest pleasure; for if parliament were to satisfy the catholics, without at the same time conciliating the protestants, they would do only half their work, for the elements of contention would still subsist in Ireland. A great mistake was

made in 1792 by granting power to the rabble, and withholding it from the knowledge, property, and station of the country. He would now propose to remedy that mistake, by taking power from the rabble, and bestowing it on rank, knowledge, and property. Under the present system, the great mass of the Irish voters blindly followed the directions of their landlords with respect to the manner in which they should dispose of their votes, without reference to the merits of the dif

ferent candidates. As a proof of this, it was stated in evidence before the committee, that candidates never thought of canvassing the electors on the estate of an adverse proprietor, because it would be impossible to obtain their votes. It was highly desirable to confer the elective franchise only upon those who were capable of forming a just estimate of the merits of the candidates. Such a measure would, he conceived, be acceptable to all parties; and he most solemnly believed that it would add to the happiness of Ireland, and the security of the British empire.

Mr. Bankes considered the proposed provision for the Romancatholic clergy as a most objectionable measure, and moved as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time this day six months.

Mr. W. Peel rose to second the amendment; and said, that judging of popular feeling from the sentiments of the place he represented, he should decidedly hold that the people of England were averse to granting any further concessions to the catholics. For himself, after great attention to the sub

ject,

ject, he professed that he remained unconverted. If the opinions which he had held formerly were those of bigotry, it was his misfortune to be a bigot still. But, even if he had generally been friendly to the cause of catholic emancipation, he should consider the present time a most unfit one for carrying it. It would really be putting too high a premium upon faction and violence, to let it be supposed that the late proceedings of the Catholic Association had tended to promote any thing in the way of concession from parliament or the country. Honourable gentlemen said it was hard to make a large body of people suffer for the violence or imprudence of a few; but the catholics of Ireland, let it be remembered, had in every sense identified themselves with the Catholic Association; they had adopted the leaders of that body as their chiefs, and made themselves party alike to their opinions and proceedings. He believed it was an exaggeration to say that the cause of catholic emancipation was the cause of 6,000,000 of people in Ireland; but the fact mattered little, for the grea er their number the greater was the danger of granting what they desired. He was not one who thought that the political consequences would be trifling of carrying the present measure. If parliament once was thrown open to the catholics, a decided change could not fail to take place in the state of the Irish representation. A large body of catholics would soon be found sitting in that house to legislate upon matters connected with protestant interests and protestant supremacy. If these were good catholics, they would most certainly endeavour to exalt their

own establishment at the expense of the rival faith; and therefore, taking them to be zealous followers of their own system, he would never consent to intrusting them with power. The grants proposed to the catholic clergy by the present measure, in his view, only rendered it additionally objectionable. He was opposed to the principle of such a grant rather than to the mere pecuniary expense; because, if once it was carried, what was to hinder every other sect opposed to the established church from claiming a similar provision? That the grant of what was called catholic emancipation would end the miseries of Ireland, it would be ridiculous to expect; he, personally, was not of opinion that it would in any way decrease them. The evils which afflicted Ireland were the want of a resident gentry, the want of capital, the want of commerce, of moral and religious education. These were difficulties" not to be got over-not to be touched-by a measure which, to him, seemed pregnant with danger to the community; and certainly, so long as he continued to think the religion in which he had been bred and educated the best religion on the face of the earth, so long he should feel it is duty to oppose any extension of the political privileges of the catholics.

Colonel Bagwell opposed the amendment.

Mr. G. Dawson adverted to the intense anxiety with existed in Ireland as to the result of the present question, and said that all Europe might be considered as looking with scarcely less of interest to the discussion. Taking into account the important consequences which were to hang upon

the