and minimum without any protecting duty. He knew not whether he had made himself intelligible, but he thought it right to lay before the house the different systems which it was likely their lordships would have to discuss. He must now again repeat, that it was not his intention to propose any alteration in the corn laws during the present session. He did not know, however, but that one particular part of the present system might sooner be brought under their lordships' consideration-he meant the question relating to the bonded corn which had been and still was in warehouses. That question had already undergone some alteration with respect to Canada corn, With regard to the other bonded corn, those members of the landed interest whom he had consulted on the subject were favourable to the contemplated alteration. As to the general question, he certainly could not think it right to enter on its consideration at this late period of the session; but, aware that it must in due time come under consideration, he was anxious to put the house in possession of his views and feelings on the subject.

The Marquis of Lansdown had a petition to present from the city of London, praying for a revision of the corn laws, which he should submit to their lordships to-morrow. He concurred in much of what had fallen from the noble earl opposite; at the same time he must observe, that the result of many deliberate and serious reflections on this subject had brought him to the conclusion that it would be ultimately impossible

It

for parliament to continue a system of restrictive corn laws. would therefore be the duty of parliament to look forward to the doing away of the system altogether. He agreed with the noble earl as to the difficulty of fixing a duty which would not be found very inconvenient in periods of scarcity or abundance: but at the same time, he regarded such a plan as the best calculated to prevent scarcity. While entertaining this opinion as to a fixed duty, he must confess that he was far from regarding parliament to be now in a situation to determine what that duty should be. They must first determine the average price which would afford a sufficient guarantee to the British cultivator, and next the average state of productiveness on the continent. He was sure that most erroneous notions prevailed as to the average cost and price of agricultural produce on the continent, and that there was great difficulty in de. termining what it was likely to be, in such a way as to enable their lordships accurately to fix a rate of duty. In coming to a determination, it would be their lordships' duty to endeavour to conciliate all the interests in the country, and to take care that the balance should not incline too much to the one side or the other. Their great object should be, to arrive at something fixed and permanent; for, bad as the present system was, he would rather retain it, with all its faults, than change it for one still liable to fluctuation. It was obvious, that if too high a price were fixed, the manufacturing interest would have just reason to complain of the dearness of provisions, which must raise

the

the price of every kind of labour. If the price were fixed too low, the landed interests would be injured, and with it, as recent events had most strikingly proved, every other interest in the country would be seriously affected... Their lordships would then be assailed with a clamour, and parliament would be again compelled to raise the price. On these grounds he thought he could not too strongly impress on their lordships the necessity of considering this important subject in all its bearings; and, in their revision of the present system, of looking to the establishment of a permanant law which would be capable of conciliating the interests of all the different classes of the empire.

The Earl of Lauderdale thanked the noble earl for the exposure he had given of his views on the corn laws. It was not his intention then to deliver any opinion as to any particular plan which it might be proper for parliament to adopt, but he must remind their lordships, that while they were considering the subject, speculation would be at work. It was therefore necessary to delay their determination as little as possible, and to make the new system one of more certainty than the present. A fixed and permanent arrangement ought to be adopted for a time of peace. The noble earl had stated, that under the present system, corn was now in this country twice the price it sold for on the continent; but he should recollect, that when the last arrangement was made, the agriculturists were told that 80s. was to be the minimum. Their complaint, however, was, that the price had never reached 80s. However,

during the existence of the arrangement, bread had never been at an unreasonable price. If it were intended to come at last to a permanent arrangement, he did not conceive that the task could be accomplished without a most laborious inquiry, not only into the state of agriculture in this country, but into its relative situation in the rest of Europe. When their lordships considered that the present system, under various modifications, was the same which had endured for more than a century, they could not be too cautious in departing entirely from it. He did not say that it was perfect ; but it was one under which the agriculture of this country had long flourished. On this ground, he dreaded alteration. He dreaded it, because, if any change was to be made, it ought to be to a permanent system, which was difficult; and because the situation of the landed interest was different from that of any other. Capital was embarked on land under leases of 21 years, and the value of that capital would be instantly affected by any alteration of the law. All he should farther say at present was, that he hoped the inquiry would be carefully conducted, and that the discussion would be deliberate.

The Earl of Liverpool wished to make one observation more in consequence of what had fallen from the noble lords opposite. He fully agreed with them in the importance of a careful investigation, and that if a change of system were made, it should be one of as permanent a nature as possible. But if they were to look to the price of grain in this country and abroad, they would find

that

that nothing could be of a more varying nature. To be convinced of this, they had only to refer to the prices of the last thirty years. The different rate of taxation in this and other countries necessarily caused a great difference of price, and rendered it difficult to come to a decision on the question of duty. The variation in the weight of the taxation, too, from 70 to 30 millions, was a cause of fluctuation. Prussia, Poland, and other countries, from which foreign corn was usually imported, were all poor; but as they increased in wealth and civilization, their power of supplying us would be come less. These were all circumstances hostile to that permanency which was so desirable. Their lordships would have to consider, whether they would adhere to the present system, or adopt one of protecting or fixed duties; but, in whatever way they might proceed, it appeared to him that they could never expect to obtain that certainty which would enable them to fix an unalterable price.

Lord King wished a determination to be come to on this subject as speedily as possible; for, in consequence of the agitation of the question, bargains between individuals must be at a stand till a settlement took place. He was, however, glad that the noble lord opposite was to call the attention of parliament to the subject, and he hoped that an understanding would be brought about between the landed interest and the manufacturers. Wheat in some of the continental ports was 18s.; but if the market was opened in this country, it would rapidly rise perhaps to 56s. or 60s.; but, what

ever might be the present price, great difficulty would be experienced in founding on it a fixed rate for importation. One great inconvenience of a high rate was, that when the ports were suddenly thrown open, an immense importation took place. Some measure, he thought, ought to be adopted to restrain the excessive importation which took place in such cases.

Lord Calthorpe, after expressing his opinion in favour of the proposed investigation, presented a petition from the chamber of commerce of Birmingham, praying for a revision of the corn laws.

The Earl of Darnley was glad to hear that this important subject was to be inquired into. He always regarded the landed and commercial classes of the country as having one common interest. Of this he was certain, that if the landed interest was injured by any change in the corn laws, the British manufactures would lose their best customers. He approved of the plan of coming to no decision until next session.

Several petitions against the catholic claims were presented.

His royal highness the Duke of York stated, that he had been requested to present to their lordships the petition of the dean and canons of Windsor, praying that no further concessions should be made to the Roman-catholics.

He considered it unnecessary, in bringing before their lordships the petition of so learned and respectable a body, to assure them it was worded so as to ensure its reception; but before he moved that it should be read, he must be permitted to say a few words.

Sensible as his royal highness

was

was of his want of habit and ability to take a part in their lordships' debates, it was not without the greatest reluctance that he ventured to trespass upon their time and attention; but he felt that there were occasions when every man owed to his country and to his station, to declare his sentiments; and no opportunity could, in his opinion, offer, which required more imperiously the frank avowal of them than the present, when their lordships were called upon to make a total change in the fundamental principle of the constitution, and, in his royal highness's view of the question, to strike at the very root of its existence.

His royal highness observed, that twenty-eight years had elapsed since this question had been first agitated, under the most awful circumstances, while this country was engaged in a most arduous and expensive, though just and glorious war; that the agitation of it had been the cause of a most serious and alarming illness to an illustrious personage now no more; whose exalted character and virtues, and whose parental affection for his people, would render his memory ever dear to this country; that it had also produced the temporary retirement from his late Majesty's councils, of one of the most able, enlightened, and most honest statesmen of whom this country could boast.

Upon this question they were now called to decide; and from the first moment of its agitation to the present, his royal highness had not for one instant hesitated, or felt a doubt, as to the propriety of the line of conduct he had adopted in reference to it.

1825.

That he must also call their lordships' attention to the great change of language and sentiments which had taken place since the subject was first introduced, among the advocates for catholic emancipation.

That at first the most zealous of these had cautiously and yet strenuously endeavoured to impress upon the minds of the people, that catholic emancipation ought not to be granted without establishing strong and effectual barriers against any encroachment on the protestant ascendancy. But how changed was now their language! Their lordships were now required to surrender every principle of the constitution, and to deliver us up, bound hand and foot, to the mercy and generosity of the Roman-catholics, without any assurance even that they would be satisfied with such fearful concessions.

His royal highness had, upon a former occasion, taken the liberty of stating his sentiments fully upon the subject, and had endeavoured to convey to their lordships that no person was more decidedly inclined to toleration than his late Majesty, but that it must be admitted there was a great difference between toleration, participation, and emancipation. He would not now enter into this discussion, convinced as he was that if the bill should again be brought under their consideration, its merits would be much more ably discussed by others of their lordships. There were, however, one or two points which appeared to him to have been kept out of view in the different debates that had occurred in various places, and which seemed to him of such vital importance,

that he could not help touching upon them.

The first was, the situation in which the church of England would be placed should catholic emancipation pass. If his royal highness were mistaken, he would doubtless be set right, but he had always understood that the established church of England stood in a very different situation from any other religious persuasion in the world,-different even from that of the sectarians in this country. The established church was subject to its own government, and did not admit the interference of the civil authorities. placed under the authority of the king as the head of it, and under the control of parliament, so much so, that the church was not only not represented as a body in the lower house of parliament, but that no clergyman was admitted to a seat in it.

It was

Surely, their lordships could not wish to place the established church of England upon a worse footing than any other church within these realms; nor allow the Roman-catholics, who not only refused to submit to our rules, but who denied any authority of the civil power over their church to legislate for the established church, which must be the case if they should be admitted to seats in either house of parliament.

The other point to which his royal highness had to advert was one he felt to be of a more delicate nature. He must, therefore, begin by stating to their lordships that he spoke only his own individual sentiments, as he must not be supposed to utter in that house the sentiments of any other person. He was sensible that by what he

was about to say, he should subject himself to the scoffs and jeers of some, and to the animadversions of others; but from speaking conscientiously his own feelings and sentiments he would by no apprehension whatever be appalled or deterred.

That he wished to ask whether their lordships had considered the situation in which they might place the king, or whether they recollected the oath which his Majesty had taken at the altar, to his people, upon his coronation. He begged to read the words of that

oath :

"I will, to the utmost of my power, maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the gospel, and the protestant reformed religion established by law; and I will preserve unto the bishops and clergy of this realm, and to the churches committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain to them, or any of them.”

Their lordships must remember that ours was a protestant king, who knew no mental reservation, and whose situation was different from any other person in this country; that his royal highness and every other individual in this country could be released from his oath by the authority of parliament; but the king could not. The oath, as he had always understood, was a solemn obligation entered into by the person who took it, from which no act of his own could release him; but the king was the third part of the state, without whose voluntary consent no act of the legislature could be valid, and he could not relieve himself from the obligation of an oath.