Postmaster General DONALDSON. They are charged with that responsibility.

The CHAIRMAN. So the three who are certified to you in the first place have, so far as the Civil Service Commission is concerned, met that test; have they not?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. All three of them.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. They have met that test, or the Civil Service Commission would not certify them.

We have to assume, at least, that they met that test, and I am sure they did.

Then it resolves itself into whom the appointing power will consult among the three who have already met that test; does it not?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Yes, Mr. Chairman, but I don't think there would be need for the Postmaster General to do any consulting at all in that respect.

As you state, the Civil Service Commission has passed upon the character, standing, and suitability of the applicants. You have three names in front of you. And in most of the cases right now the top eligible is a veteran, in most all of these cases, and you haven't anything to do except to appoint him.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be true in many cases, but sometimes you have two veterans.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Sometimes you have three vet

erans.

The CHAIRMAN. And sometimes you have three. And then a choice can be made among the three.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. And I presume we have access to if it we want to, and we occasionally call for it-access to the Civil Service Commission's files, to determine which one of the three eligibles might have the best record, notwithstanding the fact that he may have the highest grade.

Now, I say that because a disability veteran makes 60 on the examination, and he gets 10 points, which gives him 70, and that is a passing grade. And no matter how little or how great the disability is, then he goes to the head of the list over a five-point veteran who might make 100, so that you have the disability veteran up at the top, who made 60 on his examination.

The CHAIRMAN. With that situation now, there is very little politics in it.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Very little.

The CHAIRMAN. And you say the purpose of this plan is to remove the little that is left.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. That is right, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Let us see if it does remove it. Where does the plan prohibit consultation for political purposes?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. It does not prohibit it.

The CHAIRMAN. It does not. So you are just saying that it could be carried out now so as to eliminate all politics, but there is no guaranty in the plan, and there is nothing in the plan that prohibits future political consultation.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Well, I would say "No" to that.

The CHAIRMAN. So what the plan actually does, if there is to be politics in it, is that it removes it from consideration and from consultation, if the administration wants that, of the chosen representatives of the people?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. I think that is the purpose of it, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the purpose of it, to take it further away, to take the appointment further away, from the officials whom the people themselves have elected to represent them. It does that, does it not?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Yes; it would.

The CHAIRMAN. Since the plan does not prohibit politics and political consultations, the effect of it would be that if those political consultations were to be pursued in the future-and they can be, under the plan-it would simply place the politics behind an iron curtain, where the representatives of the people could not expose it or have anything to do with the selection of their own servants.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. It would do this, Mr. Chairman. At the present time, there are 196 nominations pending in the Senate. Ninety-five of them have been there for a considerable length of time. One hundred and one were submitted about a week or 10 days ago. In the meantime, in all of those offices, we have an acting postmaster serving who is not the one that has been nominated. And there isn't anything we can do about that until there has been Senate confirmation.

So in every session of Congress there are a number of nominations pending which have not been acted upon at the close of the session, and that means that an acting postmaster sometimes is serving for 2 or 3 or 4 years.

I know of two right now who have been serving since 1948, where nominations of a veteran have been submitted as many as four times. It would cure that. And it would provide a means by which the Post Office Department could promptly fill these vacancies and not carry an acting postmaster along so long.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is not a very bad evil. You only have that occasionally.

You have that in other Departments. We had a vacancy in the Internal Revenue Office in my State for 4 years, and they never would submit a name.

So you will have the same thing under this plan if they want to have it, that you have right now. It is not going to change anything. It leaves all the power in the Bureau or in the Department, and takes away the little bit of influence the representatives, the chosen elected Representatives of the people, may have now in selecting their civil servants, does it not?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Well, would you advocate, Mr. Chairman, that if you are going to consult the elected Representatives, the Department should consult with every Member of Congress in the district regardless of his political affiliation?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I think so. If you are going to take politics out of it, that is the way to do it.

But you talk about taking politics out. and the truth is that you are not taking it out. You are concentrating it at the top, putting it behind an iron curtain, where the elected representatives of the people

can have no say-so about it, if you choose not to let them have any say-so about it. That is the way I see the plan.

You have your system now. It is a merit system. They have to qualify. You are not going to change the method of qualifying at all. You have that now, and it is a good system. And it is good, too, that it is an open competitive examination. Just because a fellow has served in the Post Office Department for years does not necessarily qualify him to make the best postmaster. There are other factors that have to be taken into account, as I see it.

But when you do open it up, under the present system, every employee of that Post Office who is under civil service, who aspires to be postmaster, has his chance to compete in a competitive examination to establish himself as the most eligible and the most competent and the most qualified in the community. So you are not changing that at all. Postmaster General DONALDSON. No

The CHAIRMAN. We are retaining that. And you have that now. And so, as I see it, all this plan does is simply remove any influence, if you choose to do it, that a local representative elected by the people might have in helping to determine who will serve his people in that local capacity.

One other thought about this.

When you make this change, under Civil Service Regulations, can you transfer postmasters from one office to another as you can transfer all other civil service post office employees now?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. No, sir. I do not see that it eliminates from the law, Mr. Chairman, the residential requirements of eligibles at the present time. They cannot now be transferred from one office to another office.

The CHAIRMAN. Cannot now ?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. No, and they couldn't under this change.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a legal opinion on that?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Yes, sir. There is nothing in the reorganization plan that does away with the residential requirements of postmasters. And there is a basic law, which has no relationship to your act of June 25, 1938 or any of this plan at all, which requires every postmaster to have residence in the area of his office.

The CHAIRMAN. Since you say all this plan does is change the manner of appointing the postmaster, taking the power out of the President and putting it in the Postmaster General, and eliminating confirmation, have you given any thought to the legality of this plan under the reorganization act, whether that change in substantive law can be made by reorganization plan rather than by legislation?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Well, my understanding is that the Attorney General has ruled that it is legal.

The CHAIRMAN. When did he make that ruling?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. I presume you will have to get that information from the representative of the Bureau of the Budget. The CHAIRMAN. You had entertained a different opinion about it heretofore, had you not?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. About the plan?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, about whether you could make this change by reorganization plan rather than by legislation.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. No, I had not, Mr. Chairman.

When the thing was under discussion and under consideration, it was suggested that the matter be taken up with the Attorney General's office, and I think Mr. Frank may be able to answer you on that. The CHAIRMAN. I am speaking of you personally now.

Have you not held to the view, heretofore, that to make this change, that is, to carry out the Hoover Commission's recommendations with reference to eliminating confirmation-have you not entertained the view heretofore that that could not be done by reorganizaion plan, but would require legislation?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. I think originally, Mr. Chairman, when the nine recommendations of the Hoover Commission were submitted, I did make a statement that certain ones of those recommendations could be carried out through a reorganization plan, and certain ones of them would require legislation. And I probably said at that time that this recommendation No. 5, which was to do away with the confirmation of postmasters, would require legislation. And as a result of that, I submitted a draft of a bill to bring it about.

The CHAIRMAN. You so testified before the Post Office and Civil Service Committee.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And at that time it was your view that this change which you now ask to be made by reorganization plan could not be made by reorganization plan, and therefore you did not include it.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. No; I didn't testify in that way, Mr. Chairman. I testified that this recommendation of the Hoover Commission, which recommended the abolishment of postmasters, would require legislation.

I made no coment about any reorganization plan at that time, because it wasn't in the picture.

But I did testify before the Subcommittee of the Senate Post Office Committee on this suggested legislation to do away with the confirmation of postmasters, that it would require legislation. That is the reason we submitted the legislation.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, when did you get legal advice that caused you to change your mind and conclude that it could be effectuated by a reorganization plan instead of legislation?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Well, the various recommendations of the Commission on Reorganization of the Executive Branch of the Government have been up from time to time, not only this one but many of them from time to time, as to which of these recommendations could be carried out by reorganization. And the conclusion was reached that this could be carried out by a reorganization plan, and the plan was submitted.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I have a transcript of your testimony before me with respect to this point.

It is on S. 2212 and S. 2213. That was under consideration by the Committee on Post Office and Civil Service.

And S. 2213 was a bill relating to the appointment of postmasters, in which you said that it was not a reorganization matter, and its purposes could only be accomplished by legislation.

The following colloquy occurred between you and members of the committee:

Senator LONG. I would like to ask just a question, if I might. Would it be possible and I wondered if you have been advised on this to accomplish the

purposes of S. 2212 and S. 2213 by merely a reorganization plan of the President? Do you know of any legal impediment to the President sending down such a reorganization plan as this and simply letting it go into effect?"

Mr. DONALDSON. I think S. 2212 and S. 2213 can only be accomplished by legislation.

Senator LONG. It is not actually reorganization at all, but it is actually changing a way of doing business for the Federal Government.

Mr. DONALDSON. That is correct.

Then Senator Thye asked you:

Why had not the President's message embodied what is in the two legislative measures here?

That is the reorganization plan he is referring to.

Mr. DONALDSON. It did embody it, Senator Thye, and recommended it, but left up to the Post Office Departme; t. in cooperation with the Bureau of the Budget, to draft the suggested legis.ation to carry h.s recommendation into effect.

Senator THYE. In other words, they are in accordance, these two bills, with his message, and that is the legislation that was contemplated within his message.

Mr. DONALDSON. That is right.

Senator FREAR. But including his Reorganization Plan No. 3, that supplements it.

Mr. DONALDSON. That is right, and that requires no legislation.
That is, Reorganization Plan No. 3.

It seemed at that time, in June 1949, shortly after the Reorganization Act went into effect, that all of you were under the opinion, including the Bureau of the Budget, that to effectuate this change and carry out this recommendation of the Hoover Commission, legislattion was required, and it could not be accomplished by reorganization plan.

Postmaster General DONALDSON. Mr. Chairman, that is true, because at that time we submitted suggested legislation for it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

But now, since that legislation has not been enacted, apparently your views have been changed. The administration viewpoint has been changed, including yours. And you have concluded now that it can be done by reorganization plan.

I am not saying it can or cannot. But in the beginning when you first submitted plans for reorganization of the Post Office Department and so forth, the conclusion was reached that this could not be effectuated by a reorganization plan and would require legislation.

Now, what I want to develop for the record is when that change of view came about, and how, and under what legal advice.

What legal advice or legal opinion was obtained, that a reorganization plan would accomplish this?

Postmaster General DONALDSON. I think, Mr. Chairman, there has been a lot of criticism that the executive branch of the Government has not tried to carry out all of the recommendations of the Hoover Commission or those that they could. So a more careful study has been made of all of these recommendations, not only as it applies to the Post Office Department but as it applies to other departments, to see whether or not some of these recommendations could be carried out by reorganization plan.

And I think they reached the decision in consulting with the Attorney General's Office that this could be carried out through reorganization plan.