Senator DWORSHAK. But you said that the Commission is nonpolitical, that partisanship has no part in the operations of the Civil Service Commission.

Dr. FLEMMING. I don't think that those two statements are contradictory.

Senator DwORSHAK. Well, would it be reasonable to have two of the three Commissioners belonging to the minority party? Would it be reasonable?

Dr. FLEMMING. Sure it would.

Senator DwORSHAK. But has that situation ever obtained?
Dr. FLEMMING. Sure it has.

Senator DwORSHAK. When?

Dr. FLEMMING. President Theodore Roosevelt had a majority of Democrats.

Senator DwORSHAK. How about George Washington? I am asking you for the last 10 or 12 years.

Dr. FLEMMING. No; it has not. It hasn't for the last 20 years. Senator DWORSHAK. Are we going to be realistic?

Dr. FLEMMING. Could I make this statement, right along that line? I served for 9 years as a member of the Civil Service Commission. I do not know of a single instance where I was outvoted on a purely political issue. Now, I make that as a statement of fact. My colleagues on the Commission recognized, just as I did, that they had taken an oath of office to uphold the Civil Service Act, the rules issued by the President, and their own regulations, and they tried sincerely to do that.

Senator DwORSHAK. Did you serve with Mrs. Perkins?

Dr. FLEMMING. Yes; for 2 or 3 years.

Senator DWORSHAK. She is not a politician?

Dr. FLEMMING. Of course, she has been a very effective political leader.

Senator DWORSHIAK. She has? How did she ever get on the Civil Service Commission?

Dr. FLEMMING. She was appointed by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate, and in my judgment has tried to achieve just the kind of objectives that I have been talking about.

Senator DwORSHAK. Trying to get to heaven but never getting there?

Dr. FLEMMING. After all, Senator, I don't think that fact that a person has been a political leader disqualifies that person from doing a fair and objective job when he is put in a public office.

Senator DwORSHAK. I agree with you, and on that basis I suggest we have two Republicans out of the three Commissioners. That would be a good suggestion?

Dr. FLEMMING. Personally I think it would be a fine thing. I agree with you on that.

Senator DwORSHAK. That is wonderful. Fine.

Dr. FLEMMING. But I don't expect it to happen. That is the only thing. And if, Senator, may I say, by any chance the Republicans should be elected, I don't expect the majority of the Civil Service Commission to be made up of Democrats.

Senator DwORSHAK. Who is contending that that will happen?

Dr. FLEMMING. I don't know that anyone is. But I just don't expect it to happen.

But I still feel that under that kind of a civil-service set-up where you have normally two members of the Commission who represent the party in power and one representing the party out of power, it is possible to make substantial progress in the direction of the selection of personnel on the basis of merit. And I contend that from 1883 down to the present time this Nation has made substantial progress in that direction. I think any of us taking a look at the situation today as contrasted with the situation that existed before civil service came into effect would certainly contend and would certainly agree that we have far more jobs today filled solely and strictly on the basis of merit than was the case before we started to operate a civil-service system.

Now, we are never going to reach Utopia. We are never going to completely eliminate politics from the selection of people for these jobs. I know that. But we can keep moving in that particular direction.

Senator DwORSHAK. All that you do, Doctor, is have a Postmaster General who is nonpoliical, like Will Hays or Jim Farley or somebody like that. That is all we need.

Dr. FLEMMING. Senator, I think you probably recall that the Hoover Commission recommended that in the future the chairman of a national committee should never be put in the post of Postmaster General, on the ground that that is one of our major business operations of the Government.

Senator DWORSHAK. That is a splendid suggestion.

Dr. FLEMMING. And it should be divorced from political considerations.

Senator DwORSHAK. But it has not been the situation in the past, has it? Dr. FLEMMING. Of course not. And that is why the Hoover Commission has made the recommendations that it has made. And it never will be the situation as long as you have confirmation by the Senate of postmasters. I don't care what political party is in power. And that is why we made the recommendation that we made. That is why in my judgment that must be followed by a rule prohibiting the Postmaster General from consulting his political advisers. And as I understand it, the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, Mr. Ramspeck, who is a Democrat

Senator DwORSHAK. Is he a Democrat? You shock me.

Dr. FLEMMING. Has testified before this same committee that he believes that the President must issue a rule forbidding the Postmaster General from consulting advisers in the way in which they are consulted on rural carriers and also in the way in which they are consulted on postmasters.

Senator DWORSHAK. In other words, it is just as simple as this. At least two or three of the members of the Civil Service Commission expect to get their appointments solely on the basis of partisan politics, but at that point they forget politics in the filling of all other jobs in the Federal Government. Is that it?

Dr. FLEMMING. I don't think that the present Chairman of the Civil Service Commission was appointed solely on the basis of politics.

I think he was appointed because of a general recognition on the part of Democrats and Republicans alike that he was well qualified for that particular post. And in my judgment he is one of the best Chairmen of the Civil Service Commission that this country has had.

Senator DwORSHAK. And if we ever have a Republican President, I will guarantee to ask him to keep Bob Ramspeck as Chairman. You know he will do it, too.

Dr. FLEMMING. You can't tell. We had one Republican President who did that, and who was thinking apparently along the same lines that you are thinking, namely, that if he kept a majority of the party out of power on the Civil Service Commission he would thereby make a contribution to the development of a sound career service in this country.

Senator, I appreciate the fact that we can be somewhat cynical about the way such a system operates. But at the same time, I do not think that we can overlook the fact that there are tremendous stakes involved here, that this Government of ours has been assigned powers and responsibilities that defy our imagination. Those responsibilities have to be discharged in an effective manner if we are not going to undermine the foundations on which this Nation of ours rests.

Therefore, it seems to me that each one of us has an obligation to make whatever contribution we can make toward the goal of having persons selected for public office on the basis of merit.

Senator DwORSHAK. In other words, we had better not have a twoparty system and make all Members of Congress nonpartisan.

Dr. FLEMMING. No, Senator. I am a great believer in our twoparty system. And I happen to head an educational institution that has as part of its program an institute of practical politics. And our objective is to get people in a frame of mind where they will go back into the communities of this country and aline themselves with either the Democratic or the Republican Party and go to work at the ward and precinct level.

In my judgment we need to have far more citizens doing just that, if this country is going to rest on a sound foundation.

But when it comes to the technical administration of the affairs of government, it seems to me that we should forget the political considerations and pick the person who is willing to go in and make a career out of it and render as fine a service to the people of the Nation as he possibly can.

I think that what I said earlier indicates that. I don't think that because a man has been an effective political leader that disqualifies him for service on the bench, for example. I think that an effective political leader can be appointed to the bench and as a judge will administer justice impartially and fairly and without regard to political consideration.

I also believe that it is possible for an effective political leader to be appointed to a commission such as the Civil Service Commission, and having been appointed and having been confirmed by the Senate, to discharge his responsibilities in a fair and objective manner. I don't say that all will do it. I don't say that all judges do it. I don't say that all members of the Civil Service Commission will do it. I say that it is possible to do that. I say that it is possible for us to set a

standard of performance of that kind for ourselves as a nation and make progress in the direction of achieving that standard.

I personally have the highest regard for the effective political leader. And I just think we ought to have more of them rather than fewer; but I also believe that when it comes to putting a man in the Bureau of Standards or when it comes to putting a man in the Forest Service or when it comes to putting a man in the Bureau of Mines of the Department of Interior, and so on, this Nation is entitled to the best person that we can find. And I know of no other way of getting at it than by a merit system; recognizing the fact that it isn't a hundred percent perfect and never will be a hundred percent perfect.

Personally, I have advocated, for example-and it is involved in a bill that has passed the Senate and is in the House at the present time extending this rule of three to a rule of five. Why? That gives more of an opportunity perhaps for political consideration to enter into the appointment—I recognize that—but at the same time it also gives the appointing officer who wants to do an honest-to-goodness job of selecting the best person a better opportunity to select a person who will fit that particular job.

Because our examining processes, Senator, have not been developed to the place where we can be sure of the fact that because a man is No: 1 on the list he is the best qualified person for that particular job. And I think we have got to be realistic and recognize that and take a calculated risk as far as the political aspects of it are concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. Just at that point, will you be helpful to me and to the committee in this respect: Now, you say you are in favor of a certification of five, I believe.

Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, I disagree with that. But when you get the three or the five certified to the appointing authority, who in this instance will be the Postmaster General; whom is he to consult? Or is he to make the appointments without consultation?

Dr. FLEMMING. He can consult others. An appointing officer has a perfect right to do some checking of his own.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that rule that you are speaking of prohibit him from consulting a Congressman of the district in which the post office is located?

Dr. FLEMMING. It would prohibit him from consulting the Congressman for the purpose of obtaining a political recommendation. The CHAIRMAN. And how do we know his purpose?

Dr. FLEMMING. I know. Mr. Chairman, while on the Civil Service Commission I lived through a case involving the town of Nankin, Ohio, where we tried to establish the fact that the recommendation of the Congressman had rested on political considerations. And we asked the Comptroller General to stop his pay because of that fact. And he did. That is, the Civil Service Commission was convinced of the fact that the Congressman had made a recommendation which was based solely on political considerations.

But I recognize also the fact that that particular Congressman was just a little franker than Congressmen sometimes are in terms of what they put in writing when dealing with a matter of this kind. We had some evidence that we could act on. Normally it would be very difficult to get that particular type of evidence. I agree with you.

The CHAIRMAN. I wanted to see where this improvement is now. All you are doing in this plan-and it has been admitted by the Director of the Bureau of the Budget-is taking away Senate confirmation. It does not do anything else. It abolishes the office, creates the office again, and takes away Senate confirmation. That is the whole purpose of the plan, is it not?

Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no other purpose except the purposes that flow from that.

Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the whole thing, is it not?

Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, let us see. We are going to put the appointing power in the Postmaster General, who is a political appointee himself.

Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, when the list is certified as it is now-and there is going to be no change in that.

Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. He will get the same list which is processed in the same way that it is now processed and which he now gets.

Dr.

FLEMMING. He may have some different names on it, under the new system.

The CHAIRMAN. Under the new system?

What has the Commission been doing under the present system? Dr. FLEMMING. Some Republicans may be encouraged to file, whereas now they don't. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. I am enjoying your solicitude about the Republicans.

Dr. FLEMMING. I would be just as solicitous for the Democrats if the situation were reversed, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I know it. But let us get down to this plan now. We get the same list from the same source processed in the same way, except that there might be a Republican on it. Now, that is the only difference.

Dr. FLEMMING. There might be two or three.

The CHAIRMAN. But we have a Democratic administration. We have a Democratic Postmaster General who is a Cabinet member. Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Does he have to pay any attention to a Republican on the list?

Dr. FLEMMING. No: he doesn't have to.

The CHAIRMAN. He does not have to, does he? Well, what are we changing?

Dr. FLEMMING. Senator, that would put the postmastership in identically the same position as every other type of civil-service job in the Government, because the heads of all other departments are also political appointees. The Secretary of Agriculture, the Secretary of State, all the rest of them; they are all political appointees also.

The CHAIRMAN. You are getting somebody to serve a local community. He comes in daily contact with the patrons of that community, who are vitally interested in the type of service which that man renders in that local post office, and you are trying to make a career man out of him. That is all right. They are appointed for life now. Dr. FLEMMING. That is right.