Mr. SANDSTRUM. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And according to your understanding, you didn't think you could do that legally?

Mr. SANDSTRUM. No, I didn't.

The CHAIRMAN. And you thought the thing wouldn't go through? Mr. SANDSTRUM. No. That is correct. I didn't think so.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what you honestly thought of it?

Mr. SANDSTRUM. That is what I honestly thought.

The CHAIRMAN. And you had your fingers crossed a bit when you signed it and thought, "Oh, well, the thing will fall through, anyway"? Mr. SANDSTRUM. That is it exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that it exactly?

Mr. SANDSTRUM. That is exactly correct.

Senator CURTIS. Did this man Blake say to you anything to lead you to believe that this was approved in Washington by the heads of the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. SANDSTRUM. No, he didn't.
Senator CURTIS. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything else?

If not, thank you very much.

Call the next witness.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Hott.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sandstrum, I have just one other question. Did any of your neighbors sell out, too?

Mr. SANDSTRUM. They did.

The CHAIRMAN. Several of them did the same thing?

Mr. SANDSTRUM. Yes. My understanding is that after I had signed,

I discovered that some of them or one of them, at least, had promised he would sign providing I would.

The CHAIRMAN. So your signing got some others into it.

All right. Thank you.

All right, Mr. Hott, come forward.

You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HoTT. I do.

TESTIMONY OF WILFRED M. HOTT

The CHAIRMAN. Identify yourself for the record, please?

Mr. HOTT. I am Wilfred M. Hott of the State ASCS office at College Station, Tex.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you held that position, Mr. Hott? Mr. Hort. I have been with the State office there since May 1950. I have been in the production adjustment section since November 1954. I have been the assistant chief of the production adjustment section since September 1957.

The CHAIRMAN. As such, were you an assistant to Mr. Henry Marshall?

Mr. HOTT. Yes, I was.

The CHAIRMAN. In the position you held, you were, in effect, Mr. Marshall's assistant?

Mr. HoTT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Chairman, I would like to deviate just a little bit now and ask Mr. Hott if he will explain the chart up here from a procedural standpoint so there will be a complete understanding of how the pooled cotton allotment transfers are effected.

The CHAIRMAN. Has that chart been made an exhibit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not as yet. I have photographs right here to put into evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. The chart about which you are being interrogated now is chart No. 4, prepared by the staff of the committee. You can use it and identify it to illustrate and better explain your testimony. Mr. HOTT. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There will be three charts, I believe. You better make the first one chart 4A, which will be exhibit 62. Chart 5B will be exhibit 62A.

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit Nos. 62, 62A, and 62B" for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 797799.)

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Counsel.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Hott, will you explain procedurally how a pooled cotton allotment transfer actually takes place, starting with the farmer in Oklahoma? That is indicated on the chart.

(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)

Mr. HOTT. As I understand your question, you are interested in the actual flow of documents as they occur from the time the farmer is displaced from the farm to the time that the pooled allotment is actually transferred to a farm which he supposedly purchases. Is that correct? Is that what you are interested in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We are interested in the whole procedure, State to State.

Mr. Kamerick, let's flip to the next one.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute, we will start at Eufaula Dam in Oklahoma, where a lot of land was taken for the reservoir site.

A farmer has his farm down in that valley where, when the dam is constructed, his farm will be inundated and the Federal Government has exercised the right of eminent domain and taken that property.

On that farm, there was a cotton allotment, the acreage. That cotton allotment went into a pool, what was known as an eminent domain pool.

Start with that as a premise and explain and indicate by the chart, if you can, how that cotton acreage allotment that was on that farm gets over here into Texas on a Billie Sol Estes farm.

Mr. O'DONNELL. For purposes of clarity, let's not take Eufaula, let's take a county in Alabama.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, let's start there as I stated. There has been testimony about Eufaula and testimony about Oklahoma, where some of these came from.

Let's start there and you can make a comparison about Alabama. Mr. Hort. All right, sir.

For purposes of this discussion, we will assume that this cotton farmer was displaced from his farm on or after August 28, 1958. That is an important date inasmuch as displacements that occurred on or after August 28, there the county and State committees of the county

and State in which the farm is located would automatically pool the allotment for that particular farm.

The CHAIRMAN. This wasn't in process or this was not a procedure prior to 1958?

Mr. Hort. No, sir. On August 28, 1958, this particular provision of law, or the bill creating this, was signed into law by the President. The CHAIRMAN. It went into effect?

Mr. Hort. Yes.

Any displacement that occurred prior to August 28, 1958, there the allotment would be pooled for transfer only in the event the displaced owner made application for pooling and transfer of such allotments. So, we will assume that this allotment is one that is in the pool as a result of displacement after August 28, 1958.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. Hort. The first step toward getting the allotment from the pool to a farm in Texas is for the farmer, himself, the Eufaula, Okla., farmer, himself, to acquire land in a Texas county.

Once he has acquired the land, the next step would be for him to file a form CSS-178 in the county in Texas in which he has acquired a farm.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be over in the county in which Estes had a farm?

Mr. HOTT. Well, it would be in the county, we will say, in Reeves or Pecos County, either one.

The CHAIRMAN. Wherever he had a farm that he wanted to transfer it to?

Mr. HOTT. Yes, wherever the displaced owner had purchased or supposedly purchased a farm.

The CHAIRMAN. But it was an original Estes farm?

Mr. HOTT. In some cases; yes, sir. There were others involved. The CHAIRMAN. I mean it was an Estes farm or Estes wouldn't have anything to do with it. Estes is presumed to have sold a part of that farm to the man in Oklahoma.

Mr. HOTT. Well, yes; that is true. The Oklahoma displaced owner presumably bought land from Mr. Estes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Mr. HOTT. After the purchase or the supposed purchase of land from Mr. Estes, or any other landowner in that area, the displaced owner would file a 178, a form CSS-178, with the county office and county committee in, we will assume, Reeves County for this example, Reeves County, Tex.

The Reeves County committee would interview that displaced owner after February 17, 1961, regulations went into effect, and obtain from him all of the documents that went into the transaction whereby the displaced owner acquired this farm in Pecos or Reeves County.

Mr. O'DONNELL. What you mean is they should have secured these documents at the time they interviewed the farmer. You are not saying they did?

Mr. HOTT. I am not saying that they obtained all of the documents that have been since shown to exist in the case. Mr. O'DONNELL. All right.

Mr. Horr. At the same time that the 178 and the documents were presented to the Pecos or Reeves County committee, the displaced owner who was asking for his pooled allotment to be transferred signed a certification on form 178, to the effect that he was seeking to transfer this allotment for no one's benefit other than his own, and that the documents presented were all that existed in the case. In other words, there were no side agreements or no other agreements in existence.

The CHAIRMAN. It doesn't say no other. It just says no side agreements.

Mr. Horr. It just says side agreements; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And I assume it was intended to mean no other agreements!

Mr. Horr. Yes. That is the manner in which we interpreted it. Once the county committee was satisfied that there had been a bona fide purchase of land, they then transmitted the form CSS-178 to Texas State ASC office.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that the Oklahoma committee had to ascertain that it was a bona fide————

Mr. Horr. No, sir; the Texas county, Reeves or Pecos County committees determined. Upon their determination that it was a bona fide transaction, that is, that the farmer had actually bought the land, so far as the records they could see were concerned—

The CHAIRMAN, You are speaking of the county committee in the county where the land had been purchased and to which the allotment was to be transferred!

At that point, the county committee of ether Peons or Reeves chever one we want to speak of, transmitted the form dhich was complete with the farmer's signature, a statemord of De võlura pege, and book number where the warranty deed wis mooned in De Pics or Races County dek's records, and the

ITSEN tad to the Texas State offre

Mery 1 ask you, to identify this form 18 to which 1: k it has been wheemal to before, but we taong i in the word is in exhiba If you will

Part 1 is for the purpose of entering or showing general information on, actually, both farms. We have also the name and county code and the farm number, the name and address of the applicant, total farmland, total cropland, the name and address of the displaced

owner.

Part 2 is the request

Mr. O'DONNELL. Pardon me, but, part 2, is that which is signed by the county office manager?

Mr. HOTT. Yes, that is signed by the county office manager as being factual information.

The CHAIRMAN. The county officer of the county where the allotment is being transferred from?

Mr. HOTT. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To?

Mr. Hort. To.

Senator ERVIN. They had another form, CSS-177, to cover the case of the county office, or the State, I believe, from which the cotton was being transferred.

Mr. HoTT. That form is used in the county where the allotment. is placed in the pool for the purpose of the displaced owner designating beneficiary who may accrue to the same benefits that he is entitled to under section 378 of the act.

The CHAIRMAN. Since you have made reference to it, I will hand you what purports to be a copy of form 177 and ask you to examine it and state if you identify it as such.

(The document referred to was handed to the witness.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is that form 177?

Mr. HOTT. Yes; this is CSS-177, notice of displacement and designation of beneficiary.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be made exhibit 64.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 64" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Mr. HOTT. Part 2, getting back to CSS-178, is the producer's request for transfer of allotment from the pool, and also contains space for the county committee of the county in which the newly acquired farm is located to make approval of the transfer.

Part 3 of the form is for the purpose of listing history and allotment acres that are actually transferred, and also a place for recording acres, both history and allotment, that may remain in the pool after this transfer, and the signature of the State office representative giving approval to finalize the transfer of the allotment from the pool to the newly acquired farm.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Will you please also, before you get going further, tell us what 177 is, so we will have a full basis and knowledge of what transpires.

Mr. Hort. CSS-177 is a form whereby the displaced owner who has an allotment in a pool may designate some person other than himself as his beneficiary who may then accrue to the same benefits as the displaced owner in the event of his death.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Where is that filed!

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