such things to an extremely high degree, so that we have, for instance, a production line type of physical examination. Prisoners help us to take the height and weight and gather certain of the other data they act as clerks, and so forth. The examination line and the sick line are highly specialized and highly routinized procedures.

Mr. FENTON. I think that is valuable, Doctor, for you to give us what your routine is. I do not think the average Congressman knows what that procedure is.

Dr. FULLER. I am sure he does not.

Mr. FENTON. He does not know just what a medical attendant has to do in those institutions. I am sure it indicates that there is an attempt at preventive medicine which, of course, is what you should have.

STAFF SURGEONS

Do you have a regular surgeon or physician at each institution? Dr. FULLER. At the larger institutions; yes, sir. There we have a staff surgeon and there is enough work for him to do. He is busy at Leavenworth or Atlanta 3 or 4 mornings a week, all morning. At the smaller institutions we have consultants whom we call in when it is necessary to perform surgical operations. In other words, we do not expect in a 500-man correctional institution, to which only one full-time medical officer is assigned, that that medical officer will do major surgery. In fact, we frown upon his doing any major surgery, because he does not get enough of it to keep in practice. And besides, we want him to use his time for preventive activities, for prison medicine, prison psychiatry, research, and so forth.

Mr. FENTON. About how much of your appropriation is taken up by_this_consultative or adjunct medical service?

Dr. FULLER. A comparatively small amount, because we rely on public-spirited doctors and their willingness to serve, that is characteristic of the medical profession, to get the services of these men for comparatively little and sometimes for nothing. For instance, Dr. Ockerblad, one of the leading genito-urinary surgeons in the country, worked at Leavenworth for many years for $1 a year. Now we have had to take the $1 a year away from him and we pay him nothing. Mr. FENTON. Of course, he really gets clinical material?

Dr. FULLER. Yes. He also uses his staff. We do pay one of his conferees, one of the doctors on his staff, $696 a year and he comes over a couple of times a month. Dr. Ockerblad comes over about three or four times a year. But they bring students with them and they use our clinical material for teaching purposes. We are very happy and we think it is a privilege to have his services.

Mr. FENTON. Have you any way of estimating, Doctor, how much that is saving the Government?

Dr. FULLER. If they were paid regular fees that a private person would pay for the services of such men, that figure would be away,

away, away up.

Mr. BENNETT. I must say for the medical profession that they have been very kind to us. We have had a cancer operation, for instance, where we have had to take the man out of the institution and put him in a private hospital. We had a fellow with a brain tumor this last year. We took him to a private hospital and, so far as the Government is concerned, it has cost us nothing. Not only do the surgeons

do that willingly, because they are interested in the men, but also the hospitals are very cooperative. There have been some very interesting cases.

EPIDEMICS

Mr. FENTON. Do you ever have any epidemics, Doctor?

Dr. FULLER. We have an epidemic right now at the National Training School and the National Bridge Camp, of mumps. They are juvenile institutions. We have several cases in both places.

We do not have in the adult penitentiaries or even in the reformatories many of what you might call epidemics, because we have a quarantine period of 30 days, when the newcomer in an institution does not mingle with the rest, without restriction. And then, too, when we get cases of scarlet fever, or any serious epidemic disease, we yell for the Public Health Service and they send their epidemiologists and we get it controlled almost immediately, usually. At least, that has been the history of things for the past 15 years and I hope it does not change.

Mr. FENTON. Thank you, Doctor.

"THE WARDEN JOHNSTON"

Mr. ROONEY. I have just one question, Mr. Chairman, because curiosity has the better of me. Among the photographs shown to the committee I find one of a very trim boat named the Warden Johnston. Who is Warden Johnston?

Mr. BENNETT. He is the warden at Alcatraz.

Mr. ROONEY. Is this his personal boat?

Mr. BENNETT. Oh, no. It is named the Warden Johnston.

Mr. STEFAN. Is not that used as a ferry between the mainland and the island?

Mr. BENNETT. To Alcatraz; yes, sir.

Mr. ROONEY. You mean that he named this Government. boat after himself?

Mr. BENNETT. No, sir. We named it after him.

Mr. STEFAN. Warden Johnston, may I say to my colleague, is a great warden. He has been at Alcatraz quite some time. He has written considerably on work in penal institutions. As I understand it, that boat is used to transport passengers back and forth, between the mainland and the island, is that right?.

Mr. BENNETT. That is right.

Mr. STEFAN. And it is not used as a pleasure boat?

Mr. BENNETT. No, sir.

Mr. STEFAN. In answer to my colleague's question, will you state if it was named in honor of this Warden Johnston?

Mr. BENNETT. Yes; in honor of him and also because it was apropos of the service of the boat.

Mr. STEFAN. Of course, you could have named it "The Good Ship Hardship."

Mr. BENNETT. Or the "Bridge of Sighs."

ALCATRAZ

Mr. STEFAN. Will you put in the record a statement on the status of Alcatraz and what the chances are of liquidating it as far as a penal

institution is concerned; whether we could sell it to the Navy, for instance. It is a most expensive prison to operate. We have to transport every drop of water to the island. We cannot dig a well there. We have to transport soil for their garden there.

Mr. BENNETT. I will insert a statement on that in the record. (The information requested follows:)

ALCATRAZ

The establishment of the penitentiary on Alcatraz Island was in furtherance of the policy laid down by Congress in the Act of May 14, 1930, which directed the development of an integrated Federal prison system. Under this mandate a Federal penal system with facilities which would permit the effective segregation of all different types of offenders was established.

From the outset of this new policy the necessity was seen for removing from the population of the major penitentiaries the vicious, intractable offenders who were desperate escape risks and who were also a constant threat to the lives of other inmates and the personnel. Many of the offenders who were coming into Federal prisons at the time Alcatraz was established had figured prominently in the wave of gangsterism and kidnapings of the early 1930's. This led in 1933 to the acquisition from the War Department of the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Alcatraz Island, Calif., and the remodeling of that institution to provide a maximum-custody penitentiary. Also, the institution was to be one more evidence that the Department of Justice did not propose to permit a small number of prisoners to defeat its larger and more important objective of rehabilitating the better type of prisoner.

A secondary objective was to provide the Federal Government with an institution which would be as nearly escape-proof as possible. Although there have been several desperate attempts to escape, none of them has been successful. Some years ago two men got out of the institution proper and into the swift waters around the island. They have not been heard from since and we are convinced they were drowned.

A third objective was to furnish an effective answer to those who claimed that prisons did not deter crime because they were all "country clubs." It was to be an institution which would be a deterrent for the gangster, the kidnaper, and the ruthless killer. As a matter of fact, that is one of its primary purposes and there are many who believe that the very fact that this institution is functioning and provides a rigid regime for desperate malefactors who cannot otherwise be deterred from violent crime has been one of the principal causes in bringing under control the wave of gangsterism and kidnaping that prevailed a few years ago. There can be no question moreover that the institution serves a very worth while purpose in taking out of other Federal institutions assaultive, dangerous and vicious prisoners who if permitted to remain would make necessary a much more repressive program and complicate opportunities for rehabilitation. The really "bad apples" are taken out of the barrel and put where they cannot contaminate others and defeat the efforts of those prisoners who are honestly trying to make a new start.

The selection of the inmates for transfer to the institution has been most carefully and painstakingly done in line with these policies. The population has been continuously maintained at approximately the present figure by transferring out of the institution to other Federal prisons those who have profited by their experience at Alcatraz. A man can earn his way out of Alcatraz as well as into that institution. Moreover, we have never permitted it to become overcrowded and there are no instances of brutal or inhumane treatment of the inmates. But it is, designedly, an institution of maximum security and minimum privileges. The discipline is firm but fair.

It has, however, been a difficult institution to administer. Its location in San Francisco Bay complicates our administrative problems tremendously. All of the supplies come by water and all of the personnel must be ferried back and forth to the institution. Its per capita operating cost is about 21⁄2 times that of our other penitentiaries. While the institution has never been completely modernized along the lines that would seem desirable, the Government nevertheless now has an investment in plant and equipment at this institution aggregating 22 and 3 million dollars. Moreover, it could not be replaced by a modern maximum security institution housing 500 inmates at less than 7 or 71⁄2 million dollars at present prices. I have, as you may recall, Mr. Chairman, indicated on previous

occasions that at the proper time it would be wise for Congress to consider appropriating the necessary funds for a new maximum security penitentiary which would be more centrally located and which could be operated at a smaller cost. Of course, before this decision is made the proper committees of Congress will need to reach some conclusion as to the effect of the present Alcatraz penitentiary on the criminal element and the extent to which its location, atmosphere and "build-up" act as a deterrent to crime.

Also, some decision will have to be reached with respect to supplying water to the institution. At the present time our water is transported to the island through the courtesy and cooperation of the transportation branch of the Army. They are, of course, reimbursed for the out-of-pocket costs of operating the boat but the Army does not wish to be in the position of budgeting funds used largely for servicing other governmental agencies since they feel that they do not need longer to operate the water boat for strictly Army purposes. After further discussions with the War Department, this matter will again be brought to the attention of the Budget Bureau and the Appropriations Committee in connection with the 1950 budget as requested by the military authorities.

TRIBUTE TO DIRECTOR OF PRISONS

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Chairman, I am always glad to be present when Jim Bennett appears before the committee to justify his appropriation requests. I know he is conscientious. I know he has always tried to do everything humanly possible to help the men he has under his charge. I am surprised that he is able to keep his expenditures down as he does. In the case of such an item as the feeding of prisoners, I should think it would be impossible to do the job that he is doing.

I am frank to say that I shall vote for any appropriation he requests. I believe he is honest in making his requests.

Mr. BENNETT. Thank you very much, Mr. O'Brien.

Mr. STEFAN. I should like to say to the gentlemen on this committee that our colleague, Mr. Tom O'Brien, of Illinois, was known for many years as the model sheriff in the United States. He also operated a model prison under his jurisdiction. Members of this committee visited that prison and reported that it compared favorably with any Federal prison; would you not say so, Mr. Bennett?

Mr. BENNETT. Yes, a very fine institution, the Cook County jail in Chicago.

Mr. STEFAN. So that whatever Mr. O'Brien says regarding this particular appropriation comes from a great deal of practical knowledge and experience.

This will conclude the testimony on appropriations for the Bureau of Prisons and we want to thank Mr. Bennett and his staff for the information they have given the committee.

Mr. BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.