much, and as someone has said here, they did not want the cold, dead hand of Government to be laid upon them.

I have been conscious continually in the consideration of this subject of the fact that to get the best possible results you have to leave some freedom of action so that they do not feel that they are too tied down. We have tried to steer around those rocks in this bill in an endeavor to recognize that desire, and at the same time to make it practicable and reasonably effective.

Secretary SAWYER. I agree with you completely, Mr. Chairman. I think, as far as the field of actual research is concerned, the scientists must be given complete freedom of action. But I think in the bill here, as I have understood it, at least, you are not dealing with any restraint on research. You are dealing with the details of administration.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is left up to the director, is it not, upon the advice of the Foundation?

Secretary SAWYER. As I said in answer to the very first question, as to how this would work, I think it would depend largely upon who is appointed on the Foundation and who is appointed as Director. The CHAIRMAN. And the President appoints both. Secretary SAWYER. And the President appoints both.

The CHAIRMAN. With the advice and consent of the Senate.
Secretary SAWYER. That is right.

Mr. O'HARA. Mr. Secretary, believe me when I say that when we considered this bill before there was no pulling of punches in the executive meeting of the committee; and my recollection, which may be faulty, is that as to the 24 members, it was more or less sort of the feeling of the committee that it would be representative of the various sciences, of which at least there is some overlapping; that one good man would be selected for each one.

Then there came the question of the spoils being divided the appropriations, and of course we had again the conflict; some of them felt there were only four or five institutions that were worthy, and in which there was considerable disagreement.

Then we had the political phase, the land-grant college thing, that came in. So that we had many things.

What still bothers me, and I wish that you would comment upon it, is that this bill, or in any bill, the thing that I think is fundamental in this type of legislation is this: You had a perfect example, perhaps, of coordination in science in Germany under Hitler, where he just took them in and said, "You do this, and you do that"; and yet the amazing thing was that they were not able to get by the curtain of the Atomic energy which our scientists did on a voluntary basis. That is the thing that troubles me in any type of legislation of this kind.

I think, Mr. Secretary, if you would care to comment on it, I would like to have your comment on that very feature; and that is why, in the bill we drew up last year, I think this committee, while we were divided and subdivided many times on various phases, we felt very strongly on trying to keep this in the hands of the scientists. That has been the big thought, personally, in my mind; that if they do not run the show, I do not think that it is going to be run.

77488- -48- -6

Maybe I am overstating the question, but I would like to have your comment upon that picture.

Secretary SAWYER. I think it is obvious that in consideration of the bill, and knowing the care with which you have gone over the subject, the effort has been made to represent groups or areas or sections. I assume that that was the reason it was done.

I think the difficulty in that connection is like the difficulty of the woman who decides to have a dinner party; if she invites 5, the sixth or the seventh may be slighted, but if she invites 24, 100 are slighted, because once you get out of a certain group there are so many others that could be taken in.

The CHAIRMAN. You come to Washington very well advised.
Secretary SAWYER. I am learning rapidly, Mr. Chairman.

The answer to that is that there is a point where you must draw the line, and what that point is I do not know. But assuming that I am correct in discussing this thing from a matter of administration purely, I think we will all agree that the smaller the group, the more likely we are to get things done; and then if, as the chairman suggested, the real function of this large group is advisory, as it is in connection with the Aeronautical Committee, you could make it even larger if you wanted to.

Mr. O'HARA. That line you speak of, as long as we are speaking of scientists, some one has said "it is a narrow line which marks the distinction between genius and insanity."

Secretary SAWYER. That is a narrow line.

You asked another question about Hitler, and asked if I had any comments on that, as to the fact that Hitler did not discover the atomic-bomb secret.

I think that three factors could be pointed out which might have a bearing on that. In the first place, my understanding is that one of the great atomic scientists who had great knowledge in that field was one of that group that was under the ban in Germany, and, therefore, probably was not working as enthusiastically as she might have done.

In the second place, there was a great deterrent in the raid that was made by the R. A. F. or the American Air Forces, I am not sure which one, on that great scientific laboratory at Peenemunde; and I think in all fairness, in connection with our discovery, we cannot overlook the Manhattan project, which was run by a combination of the Government, with its cold hand, and the scientists, nor the very generous appropriations that were made by Congress, that was back of the whole project.

Mr. O'HARA. But it was unquestionably, Mr. Secretary, the absolute wholehearted and enthusiastic and patriotic effort of all of the scientists, despite what money may have been spent, that brought it about. In my judgment, at least, that was done. It is true that it was coordinated and it was directed along certain lines, but it had that something which Hitler was not able to quite get out of even certainly some perfectly marvelous scientific minds over there that they had to work with.

As you said or as you suggested, it was because of this one question which probably kept them from enthusiasm on the part of one of their scientists. We can reach the same point if politics gets into this bill. It could be that same feeling.

Secretary SAWYER. If your question is: Do I agree that politics and racial prejudice, and so forth, should not enter into it, I certainly do most heartily.

- Mr. O'HARA. That is all that I have, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions, gentlemen?

Mr. HESELTON. Mr. Secretary, I noticed in your statement that you made reference to the fact that the Federal Government is already spending millions of dollars a year on scientific research, and gave a few examples.

I made an effort about a year ago to fiind out how much the Government was spending in the field of research. I was told it was in the billions rather than millions. I was advised it was utterly impossible to break it down to find out how much was being spent.

Since this is an effort to coordinate and avoid duplication and waste, I notice that you have mentioned several divisions that are under the jurisdiction of the Department of Commerce.

It may not be quite a fair question at this stage, but I wonder if anyone in the Department has attempted to break down what the Department itself is doing in the field of research in terms of dollars? Secretary SAWYER. I do not know that anyone has undertaken to do it, but we certainly can do it. The Bureau of Standards and the Weather Bureau would be the chief agencies, I think.

Mr. HESELTON. For my information, if it is not too much trouble and you can ask someone to do that, I would like to see those figures. Secretary SAWYER. We certainly will.

(The information requested is as follows:)

Hon. JOHN W. HESELTON,

House of Representatives.

THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE,
Washington, June 1, 1948.

MY DEAR CONGRESSMAN: In reply to your question put to me at the committee meeting this afternoon, the following represents funds available for research from regular appropriations of the Department of Commerce during the fiscal year 1948:

Scientific research:

National Bureau of Standards.

Weather Bureau___.

Coast and Geodetic Survey___

Civil Aeronautics Administration__.

Total____

$6,750,000 630, 000 50,000

1, 800, 000

9, 230, 000

This does not include funds transferred from the Army, Navy, and other agencies for scientific research conducted by the Bureau of Standards, nor does it include moneys appropriated for economic or statistical research in the Office of Business Economics, Office of Domestic Commerce, Office of International Trade, and the Census Bureau.

If there is any other information you desire, I shall be glad to furnish it.
Yours sincerely,

CHARLES SAWYER, Secretary of Commerce.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions, gentlemen? If not, we thank you for your appearance, Mr. Secretary, and we look forward to your appearance again before the committee. It is always a pleasure to have a person come before the committee who has spent a large part of their life in practical business, because they come with practical thoughts, and you have done that today and we appreciate it. Secretary SAWYER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Dr. Wolfe present?

Dr. Wolfe is the professor of physics, New York City College, representing the Federation of American Scientists.

Mr. KEOGH. May I ask what college that is?

STATEMENT OF DR. HUGH WOLFE, REPRESENTING THE FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS, AND PROFESSOR OF PHYSICS, NEW YORK CITY COLLEGE, NEW YORK, ACCOMPANIED BY DR. CLIFFORD GROBSTEIN, WASHINGTON CHAPTER, FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Dr. WOLFE. It is the City College of the City of New York.

Mr. Chairman, as you have just said, my name is Hugh C. Wolfe, and my title is assistant professor of physics.

The CHAIRMAN. For the purpose of the record, will my esteemed colleague inform me why he asked that question? I did not get the significance of it.

Mr. KEOGH. We have a number of colleges in New York City. One is New York University and the other is the College of the City of New York.

The CHAIRMAN. Was not New York City College the correct name? Dr. WOLFE. Could I just answer the question. It is a complicated. set-up. You see, we have four municipal colleges in New York; that is, municipal ones, financed by the city, which together are called the College of the City of New York; and of those four colleges, one is the City College, and the others are Hunter College for Women, Brooklyn College and Queens College, which are coeducational. City College is primarily a men's college. Does that clarify the situation? Mr. KEOGH. I just wanted to know.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not know that set-up.

Dr. WOLFE. I am very pleased to be permitted to come here and testify before the committee. I am representing the Federation of American Scientists which is a federation of about 20 member groups of scientists in various research centers of the country. While most of our members, as individuals, are directly engaged in scientific research, their organization, the federation, primarily concerns itself with the problems created by the results of that activity for society as a whole. It is unnecessary to enlarge here on the double impact of science on society, in both solving problems and creating new ones. Because of our deep concern with these matters, we are vitally interested in the proposed National Science Foundation and its potentially far-reaching influence on scientific research, and thus on the economic, industrial, and political welfare of this Nation and the world.

We are very much concerned about the establishment of a national science foundation, and we think the setting up of a national science foundation by the Eightieth Congress would be one of its major achievements. We are very hopeful that the Congress will succeed in getting legislation through before the end of this session so that there will be no further delay in the setting up of a National Science Foun la tion.

The CHAIRMAN. I can say that the committee joins with you in that. hope.

Dr. WOLFE. First, I should like to stress that the Federation of American Scientists continues to urge the earliest possible establishment of a national science foundation. Despite the lessons of the recent war, and not minimizing the importance of the contributions. made to the support of science by both public and private agencies since the war, it nevertheless remains a fact that the United States has no agency specifically charged with the responsibility for reviewing, evaluating, and financially aiding the national science effort as a whole.

We Americans seem to have a tendency toward such concern over the exploitation of past discoveries as may cause us to neglect the processes of education and basic research which will lead to new and fruitful discoveries. For the future, we cannot count on benefiting to the extent that we have in the past from basic research in other countries and from the importation of fundamental scientists trained abroad. We must discover and develop new scientific talent amongst our own people in order to increase the benefits to our national life from basic and applied scientific research. Thus, funds allotted to the National Science Foundation can be expected to yield a handsome return to the national welfare.

At its December 1947 meeting the Council of the Federation of Amer ican Scientists, looking forward to the present session of Congress, adopted a resolution calling for National Science Foundation legislation embodying the following:

1. An organization integrated into the Federal Government, with direct responsibility for disbursal of Federal funds; and assisted by an advisory council from representative fields of science, government, and the public.

2. Specific assignment to the Foundation of responsibility for formulation of national science policies, with the right and duty to survey public and private research and to make recommendations for its coordination.

3. Full discretionary power for the Foundation to set up necessary divisions and commissions without prior legislative enumeration. 4. Pending the establishment of a general education program, responsibility of the Foundation for developing the Nation's scientific personnel through scholarships and fellowships.

5. Provision for distribution on a geographic and population basis, to privately and publicly supported institutions alike, of part of the funds allotted for support of research and for training of personnel. 6. Authority for the Foundation to publish and disseminate to scientists and the public, results of scientific inquiry; and to promote international scientific cooperation.

Seventh. Free availability or dedication to the public of all patentable discoveries made during research financed through the Foundation.

Eighth. Provision that all research supported by the Foundation be nonsecret.

Ninth. Provision for a military liaison committee to insure that results of research supported by the Foundation are brought promptly to the attention of military agencies.

At its April 1948 meeting the council of the federation, aware of the provision of S. 2385 and H. R. 6007, reaffirmed its adherence to the