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and those bills are still not settled. The debate on them has consumed many, many days and hours and committee work has consumed a lot of time.
It is my feeling, that this proposal represents a sort of a pilot plant operation. It can't do any harm. It isn't big enough to unbalance the personnel situation in the Government in any way. But we can learn a lot about personnel management on this basis by observing the functioning of this Agency under these conditions. Frankly we approached our approval of this section on that basis. We think it is a good experiment and one that is worth making, and the reasons for not doing it are not very powerful.
Mr. VANCE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions.
QUESTION OF SETTING MAXIMUM SALARIES Senator JOHNSON. I want to ask this question, Mr. Chairman. In your opinion would it be more desirable for Congress rather than the Civil Service Commission to establish maximum levels of compensation beyond the Classification Act for this personnel?
Mr. ELLSWORTH. I am not sure that I understand the question, Mr. Chairman. Our ceiling in the Classification Act is $16,000 for grade 18. We have to do with the setting of grades below that, but that is the extent of our authority regarding compensation.
Senator JOHNSON. Do you think it is all right for you to fix a limit and this bill to provide none?
Mr. ELLSWORTH. Well, if I understand your question properly, with reference to the pay proposal in this bill, in this section, there isn't any restriction given to us, to the Civil Service Commission. In fact, the bill doesn't appear to have any particular limitation.
Senator JOHNSON. You think there should be?
Mr. ELLSWORTH. That is a question Congress will have to answer itself. It is a policy question. It has crossed my mind that—this is highly imaginary on my part, I am sure—but it has crossed my mind that there might be some person in the world that our Government considered very vital to this program and in order to employ that person, it might be necessary to pay a very large amount of money. If that kind of a situation existed, I assume that a limitation would not be proper but that it should be possible to pay the necessary salary. Whether that ever could happen I don't know. But that would be rationalization for that idea.
Senator JOHNSON. Counsel?
QUESTION OF ESTABLISHMENT OF SALARIES BY EXECUTIVE INSTEAD
Mr. SIEGEL. Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this question is to determine whether, as a policy matter, the Civil Service Commission should be given the power normally exercised by Congress to establish a salary scale for a specific agency or group of employees.
Mr. ELLSWORTH. Oh, with reference to section 6, the Civil Service Commission would not have the authority to establish the rates. The rates would be established by the Agency.
Mr. SIEGEL. The bill provides, “under regulations prescribed by the President” and I assume the Civil Service Commission would exercise that function for the President.
Mr. ELLSWORTH. If the Civil Service is given that function by the President, we will operate accordingly under it. The bill doesn't say that the President would assign those functions to the Commission. I would assume that they would be assigned to the Commission, however.
Mr. SIEGEL. Would there be any harm, in your judgment, in having the Commission prepare studies and its new schedule of salaries for these exempted personnel, and then transmit such recommendations to the Congress for final approval at that time, before the actual salaries went into effect?
Mr. ELLSWORTH. Well, that is an interesting idea.
Mr. SIEGEL. Would you consider that and submit your recommendation to the committee on the possibility of an amendment in this provision?
Mr. ELLSWORTH. I will be glad to do that. I would like to ask that we do this: That our staff people confer with you so that we have a meeting of minds as to what it is you want, what you have in mind, and then we will be glad to do what we can to prepare the language.
Senator Johnson. All right, Mr. Chairman. That will be done, and we will have our counsel confer with your staff people and we will see if we can work out some amendment along that line.
Mr. ELLSWORTH. We would be glad to cooperate in any way we can on that. (The material requested of Mr. Ellsworth is as follows:)
UNITED STATES CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION,
Washington, D. C., May 16, 1958. Mr. GERALD W. SIEGEL, Counsel, Special Committee on Space and Astronautics,
United States Senate, Washington, D. C. DEAR MR. SIEGEL: In response to Chairman Johnson's request at the hearings of May 13, 1958, on S. 3609, I am submitting in the absence of Chairman Ellsworth draft language to amend section 6 (b) (2) of the bill and drafts of additional sections which I believe are necessary to provide the method you suggest of establishing pay schedules for NASA.
The drafting was done rather hastily and without much opportunity for perfecting the language; we hope, however, that it meets all of the issues.
It occurs to me that the bill as presently drawn, or as it might be amended under the attached drafts, needs a provision which would protect the existing salaries of present NACA personnel, who are transferred to the new Agency, until such time as new pay schedules are in effect. It would also seem necessary to provide some means for determining pay of other employees who will be appointed to NASA in the interim period between the effective date of the act and the time any new pay plan becomes effective. If we can be of further assistance in this matter, please let me know. Sincerely yours,
WARREN B, IRONS,
Executive Director. SUGGESTED AMENDMENT TO SECTION 6 (b) (2) (2) (A) subject to the civil service laws to select, appoint, and employ such officers and employees as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act; (B) to classify the positions thereof under the policies, procedures, and standards of the Classification Act of 1949, as amended; and (C) without regard to sections 603 and 604 of Title VI of such Act, to fix and adjust the compensation of such officers and employees in accordance with basic pay plans recommended by the Civil Service Commission and approved by Congress as provided in sections and — of this Act;
SEC. (a) The Civil Service Commission shall conduct, or cause to be conducted, on a periodic or continuing basis, such surveys, investigations, and studies as are necessary for the Commission to determine and recommend a basic-pay
plan and revisions thereof for the positions to which section 6 (b) (2) of this Act applies. (b) Such basic-pay plan shall include
(1) One or more schedules of rates of basic pay for each grade of the Classification Act of 1949, as amended, which rates are consistent with the public interest, are reasonably comparable with prevailing rates paid by non-Federal employers for broadly comparable work, and have such application, geographically, as prescribed in the plan; and
(2) Such rules or regulations as the Commission may prescribe for the installation, administration, or revision of the basic-pay plan. (c) Basic-pay plans and revisions thereof, prepared by the Commission, shall be submitted to the President and upon his findings that such basic-pay plans, or revisions thereof, are necessary to accomplish the provisions of this section he shall transmit such basic-pay plans, or revisions (bearing an identifying number), and his findings, together with cost estimates, to the Congress. The delivery to both Houses shall be on the same day and shall be made to each House while it is in session,
(d) The basic-pay plan shall take effect as of the first day following the expiration of the first period of sixty calendar days, of continuous session of the Congress, following the date on which such basic-pay plan is transmitted to it; but only if, between the date of transmittal and the expiration of such sixty-day period there has not been passed by either of the two Houses a resolution stating in substance that that House does not favor such schedule or schedules. (e) For the purposes of subsection (d)—
(1) continuity of session shall be considered as broken only by an adjournment of the Congress sine die; but
(2) in the computation of the sixty-day period there shall be excluded the days on which either House is not in session because of an adjournment of more than three days to a date certain. (f) Any provision of the plan may, under provisions contained in the plan, be made operative at a time later than the date on which the plan shall otherwise take effect . SEC. —. (a) The provisions of this section are enacted by the Congress
(1) as an exercise of the rulemaking power of the Senate and the House of Representatives, respectively, and as such they shall be considered as part of the rules of each House, respectively, and such ruies shail supersede other rules only to the extent that they are inconsistent therewith; and
(2) with full recognition of the constitutional right of either House to change such rules (so far as relating to the procedure in such House) at any time, in the same manner and to the same extent as in the case of any other
rule of such House. (b) As used in this section, the term "resolution" means only a resolution of either of the two Houses of Congress which states in substance that the resolving House does not favor the proposal submitted by the President as provided in section — of this Act for the establishment, revision, adjustment, or modification of the basic-pay plan for the Agency.
(c) A resolution shall be referred to the Committee on Post Office and Civil Service of the Senate or the Committee on Post Office and Civil Service of the House of Representatives, as the case may be.
(d) (1) If the committee to which has been referred a resolution has not reported it before the expiration of ten calendar days after its introduction, it shall then (but not before) be in order to move either to discharge the committee from further consideration of such resolution, or to discharge the committee from further consideration of any other resolution which has been referred to the committee.
(2) Such motion may be made only by a person favoring the resolution, shall be highly privileged (except that it may not be made after the committee has reported a resolution), and debate thereon shall be limited to not to exceed one hour, to be equally divided between those favoring and those opposing the resolution. No amendment to such motion shall be in order, and it shall not be in order to move to reconsider the vote by which such motion is agreed to or disagreed to.
(3) If the motion to discharge is agreed to or disagreed to, such motion may not be renewed, nor may another motion to discharge the committee be made with respect to any other resolution.
(e) (1) When the committee has reported, or has been discharged from further consideration of, a resolution, it shalį at any time thereafter be in order (even though a previous motion to the same effect has been disagreed to) to move to
proceed to the consideration of such resolution. Such motion shall be highly privileged and shall not be debatable. No amendment to such motion shall be in order and it shall not be in order to move to reconsider the vote by which such motion is agreed to or disagreed to.
(2) Debate on the resolution shall be limited to not to exceed four hours, which shall be equally divided between those favoring and those opposing the resolution. A motion further to limit debate shall not be debatable. No amendment to, or motion to recommit, the resolution shall be in order, and it shall not be in order to move to reconsider the vote by which the resolution is agreed to or disagreed to.
(f) (1) All motions to postpone, made with respect to the discharge from committee, or the consideration of, a resolution, and all motions to proceed to the consideration of other business, shall be decided without debate.
(2) All appeals from the decisions of the Chairman relating to the application of the rules of the Senate or the House of Representatives, as the case may be, to the procedure relating to a resolution shall be decided without debate.
Senator JOHNSON. Thank you very much. We are glad to have seen you again. You are excused. The committee will take a recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning when we will have the legal adviser of the Department of State, Mr. Loftus Becker.
(Whereupon, at 4:20 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m., Wednesday, May 14, 1958.)
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958
WEDNESDAY, MAY 14, 1958
UNITED STATES SENATE,
Washington, D. C. The special committee reconvened, pursuant to recess, at 10:05 a. m., in the Caucus Room, Senate Office Building, Senator Lyndon B. Johnson (chairman) presiding.
Present: Senators Johnson and Green.
Also present: Cyrus Vance, consulting counsel; Eilene Galloway, special consultant; Dr. Glen P. Wilson, technical coordinator; Gerald W. Siegel, Stuart French, and Solis Horwitz, professional staff members.
Senator JOHNSON. The committee will come to order. Our first witness this morning is Mr. Loftus E. Becker, the legal adviser to the Department of State.
Mr. Becker, it has been obvious from the very beginning that the whole problem of outer space focuses attention on questions of international importance. For this reason, we are very anxious to have the State Department's attitude toward this bill.
I am asking unanimous consent to place in the record a copy of your biography and background. You may proceed thereafter as you please.
(The biography referred to is as follows:) BIOGRAPHY OF LOFTUS BECKER, THE LEGAL ADVISER, DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Mr. Becker was born in Buffalo, N. Y., on April 29, 1911. Mr. Becker graduated from Harvard College in 1932, attended the University of Vienna for 1 year, and graduated from the Harvard Law School in 1936.
He began the practice of law in Honolulu in 1936. In 1938, Mr. Becker returned to New York, where he has practiced since that time with the firm of Cahill, Gordon, Reindel & Ohl, save for three periods of Government service, The first was in the Army from 1942 through 1945; the second was with the Central Intelligence Agency from spring 1951 to mid-1953, where he served as Deputy for Intelligence in 1952 and 1953. He has served as the Legal Adviser of the Department of State since 1957.
STATEMENT OF LOFTUS E. BECKER, THE LEGAL ADVISER,
DEPARTMENT OF STATE Mr. BECKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to express on behalf of the Department and myself appreciation for the opportunity to appear before you. The Department of State has a deep and abiding interest in the problems of outer space. What the United States Government should do with respect to this entirely new field of activity-with its as yet unexplored potentialities--poses highly