and necessarily of worldwide scope. The International Geophysical Year is certainly the most tangible and most well known example of such an undertaking.

And finally, there is the application of all the knowledge and techniques resulting from the above investigations to the development of military weapons systems and to the more effective conduct of offensive and defensive warfare.

In order that we may have as a Nation an effective space program, there are two simple things required:

In the first place, we require enabling legislation which establishes an astronautical Agency as a major Federal activity.

In the second place, we must have adequate funding on a long-term basis for the execution of this undertaking.

Many of us have been concerned with these questions for some time; and, as you probably know, various groups of us have developed informal proposals of this nature for several years.

Most of us believe that we will require something like $500 million a year for the civil space undertaking. I think one should have such a figure in mind when he is thinking of a vigorous national program, Mr. Chairman.

Now, these are my prepared remarks, and I can speak from notes on other points I have, or I shall be glad to answer questions at this point, as you like.

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you very much, Doctor.

I must leave shortly to attend another meeting, and I want to ask some brief questions. I will ask Senator Symington to preside and conclude the questioning and hear the other witnesses.

SUGGESTED CHANGES IN THE BILL

Doctor, do you have any specific suggestions to make regarding improvements in the administration bill that has been forwarded to us? Dr. VAN ALLEN. Yes, sir; I have several specific suggestions I would like to mention.

I think the section of the bill that-now, I have actually the House version, but I understand it is identical with the Senate version, and I feel that the section dealing with the relationships between this new Agency and the Military Establishment is very vague, and I should like to invite your attention to a bill which was submitted by Representative Coad in the House on January 14.

It was designated H. R. 9966. I feel that one statement of Mr. Coad's bill is very pertinent to this matter, and it reads as follows: The interests of the Commission-now, he was proposing a Commission rather than a Space Agency

shall be paramount in the field of astronautics among all Government agencies except for such aspects of the field as are determined by the President to be of clear and immediate military importance.

This section settles or attempts to settle-the question of dominant cognizance in these matters.

I think it is clear that there is no attempt to prevent, retard, or in any way interfere with developments which are of "clear and immediate military importance." But it undertakes to establish this agency as the dominant one among all Government agencies in the field of civil space developments.

Senator JOHNSON. Do you think that a statement of policy is to be preferred to the language in the bill which says that the Congress desires such activity should be directed by a civilian agency exercising control over aeronautical and space research except insofar as such activity may be peculiar to or primarily associated with the military weapons system, military operations, and so forth?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. Yes, sir; I do feel that the statement in the Coad bill is superior, and mainly with regard to this one section of S. 3609 which I believe is rather unclear:

may be peculiar to or primarily associated with weapons systems or military operations, in which case the agency may act in cooperation with or on behalf of the Department of Defense.

I will admit this can be interpreted that there will be no interference. However, it seems to me it may be interpreted that the Space Agency is the primarily responsible agent and it may or may not cooperate with the Defense Department.

Senator JOHNSON. In other words, are you generally satisfied with the provisions of the Senate bill?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. Yes, sir, in broad outline.

I may say I do prefer the commission principle in an agency of this sort, rather than a single director. My reason is that I think the Atomic Energy Commission has, on the whole, worked out quite well. I think the space undertaking is an undertaking of similar diversity, and I feel that a greater breadth of competence is desirable.

I think, also, that a single directorship tends to be a lifetime job. I think in an undertaking of this sort that there should be a limited term of appointment and that there should be an assured diversity of policymaking capability which changes year by year as membership of the Commission changes.

TRANSFERS TO THE NEW AGENCY

Senator JOHNSON. Do you believe that any of the present, permanent research authority of the Department of Defense with respect to the space weapons systems should be transferred to this new Agency?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. Yes, sir; I think a good bit of it might well be and should be.

Senator JOHNSON. Which part?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. I think a good bit of what is being done within the Department of Defense in this field at the present time is on a stopgap basis and is mainly and dominantly of a civil character. But it is being done by the Department of Defense as a matter of expediency because there is no other agency in the country at the present time able to undertake it.

There is much contractual work of the Department of Defense which could be transferred bag and baggage. There are many laboratories and groups of people which would prefer to be in a civil agency and which could be transferred within a year.

Senator JOHNSON. Do you think the machinery and the mechanics for that purpose are adequate as proposed in the present bill?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. Yes, sir; although I feel that 3 years is a rather long period in this field, and I should much prefer to see the transfers made within 1 year, so that the new Agency can go ahead promptly.

PARTICIPATION IN AN INTERNATIONAL SPACE PROGRAM

Senator JOHNSON. In your opinion, is it safe at this time for our country to participate in international space programs?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. Well, sir, as you of course know, we are already doing that in the IGY.

We have a vast international network of stations, and it is an internationally cooperative undertaking at the present time. I think this can be developed and extended without hazard to the Nation. I think that international cooperation in this field will have a favorable effect on our national character and security.

Senator JOHNSON. Do you think it is not only safe to do so, but essential?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. I think it will be of very great value in easing international tensions if we can genuinely cooperate on something which is a natural field of cooperation.

Senator JOHNSON. In your opinion, are there clear limitations to such international projects, as a result of military security requirements?

Dr. VAN ALLEN. I think we must go at it gradually, and with considerable circumspection, as a start.

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you very much, Doctor.

Senator McClellan?

Senator MCCLELLAN. No questions.

Senator JOHNSON. Senator Symington?

Senator SYMINGTON. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you very much, Doctor.

Our next witness is Dr. Bronk, president of the National Academy of Sciences.

Dr. Bronk, will you please come to the microphone?

Dr. Bronk, you have held some very high scientific positions in our Government, and we are grateful to you for coming to advise and consult with us today.

As background for your testimony, I ask unanimous consent to place your biography in the record.

(The biography referred to is as follows:)

BIOGRAPHY OF DR. DETLEV W. BRONK, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, PRESIDENT, ROCKEFELLER INSTITUTE FOR MEDICAL RESEARCH, AND CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL SCIENCE BOARD

Dr. Bronk was born in New York City on August 13, 1897. He was educated at Swarthmore College, B. A. 1920, and the University of Michigan, M. S. 1922 and Ph. D. 1926. He has received many honorary degrees. In 1926 he joined Swarthmore as assistant professor, became full professor in 1928 and served as dean of men 1927-29. He was director of the Eldridge Reeves Johnson Foundation at the University of Pennsylvania, 1929-49; director, Institute of Neurology, 1936-40 and 1942-49; and professor at Cornell University Medical College, 1940– 41. He was president of Johns Hopkins University 1948-53.

He served during World War II as Coordinator of Research for the Surgeon General of the Army Air Force, as special consultant to the Secretary of War, and as Chief of the Division of Aviation Medicine of the Committee on Medical Research of the Office of Scientific Research and Development. Following the war he received the Exceptional Service Award of the Army Air Force.

Dr. Bronk is currently serving the Government as Chairman of the National Science Board of the National Science Foundation; member of the Science Advisory Committee of the Office of Defense Mobilization; member of the statutory Visiting Committee of the National Bureau of Standards; member of the Science Advisory Board of the Air Force; Vice Chairman of the NACA; member of the

Advisory Committee on Biology and Medicine, AEC; and member of the National Commission for UNESCO.

Dr. Bronk has been president of the National Academy of Sciences since 1950, and president of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research since 1953.

In addition to the above affiliations, Dr. Bronk is a trustee of the Philadelphia Institute for Cancer Research, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Marine Biological Laboratory, the Johns Hopkins University, Rockefeller Foundation, Population Council, Protein Foundation, and Sloan-Kettering Institution.

Senator JOHNSON. The committee is ready for you to make any statement you desire. Proceed in your own way.

Excuse me; I must leave at this point. I have asked Senator Symington to preside.

STATEMENT OF DR. DETLEV BRONK, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Dr. BRONK. AS President of the National Academy of Sciences, I welcome the opportunity to speak briefly in support of S. 3609.

In doing so, I recognize that all I can say has been said on numerous occasions. With your permission, I would prefer to speak extemporaneously and prepare any report of testimony that may be desired subsequently, in the light of questions you may wish to ask me. I recognize that one of your important considerations has beer whether or not this program should be supported and conducted by a civilian agency.

The reason why I feel that the provisions of the proposed bill are correct in this regard is because my experience as a member of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics for 10 years has persuaded me that an agency under civilian auspices can make its contribution to science and the Nation in cordial and effective cooperation with the military services, on the one hand, and with civilian scientists and industries, on the other.

I have been impressed during these 10 years of membership on the NACA by the devoted and cordial cooperation of all the individuals and agencies of the country which have been concerned with the development of aeronautics.

I believe, also, that the proposed bill is correct in its general structure, because it recognizes that space research calls for wise international cooperation. This is a great adventure of the human mind, and certainly no one nation should or can control all such activity. Whatever agency is established will be best fitted to do so if it is best geared to the potentialities for international cooperation.

I believe that the Agency proposed makes adequate provisions for relating military activities, on the one hand, and scientific activities carried on without any specific regard for military requirements, on the other, in a common undertaking with a common focus.

This two-way flow of activity and information is of general importance. With the development of our technological civilization and with the development of our military activities along lines of scientific and technological progress, it is increasingly important that we recognize that the totality of our national effort has a broad unity. Except for difference in ultimate objectives there is no basic difference between military science and civilian science.

With these few brief general remarks, I would enthusiastically support this bill.

Senator SYMINGTON. Senator McClellan?
Senator McCLELLAN. No questions.

COMMENTS ON LANGUAGE IN THE BILL

Senator SYMINGTON. Dr. Bronk, is there any part of the bill that you think should be changed?

Dr. BRONK. I might have introduced certain changes in emphasis. I would have made specific reference, as the President's message did, to the desirability, of close association between this Agency and the National Science Foundation and the National Academy of Sciences, in order to assure that there would be such cooperation between the Agency and the scientists of the country.

Senator SYMINGTON. Do you see any objection to having a director reporting to the President in a normal administrative way?

Dr. BRONK. No, I do not. Having served on the NACA, as I have said, for 10 years, I was well pleased with the relationship between the Director and the Committee. On the other hand, having been a university president for 10 years, I also recognize the desirability of having a more focused responsibility.

POSSIBILITY OF LIFETIME JOB FOR DIRECTOR

Senator SYMINGTON. One previous witness mentioned the possibility of it's being a lifetime job. I think that would largely depend on the way it was handled, don't you?

Dr. BRONK. I do, sir.

Senator SYMINGTON. I have never heard anybody raise any objection to Mr. Hoover being the Director of the FBI for 34 years.

Dr. BRONK. And we all know university presidents who have served long and distinguished careers.

NECESSITY FOR EARLY ESTABLISHMENT OF NEW AGENCY

Senator SYMINGTON. Would you say this matter was of sufficient urgency that you think the Agency should be set up this year or do you think it could wait until next year?

Dr. BRONK. I think it would be well to establish it this year because we are in a state of development. There is an urgency about carrying on many of our programs. As the International Geophycial Year ends, it is essential that we do not lose the momentum which has been gained under that program. If this agency is not created, I should think that other agencies would have to be utilized and this might make it difficult in the ultimate development of the Agency proposed.

At the National Academy of Sciences we are establishing a Board on Space Research in order to carry forward the activities begun under the IGY, recognizing that it is important not to have a hiatus. We would welcome the prompt creation of the NASA.

PAY SCALES IN THE NEW AGENCY

Senator SYMINGTON. How about this part of the bill which provides authority to pay scientific personnel compensation in excess of that now permitted by Federal law?