that is going to be imported under this Underwood tariff into this country. [Laughter.] By this child-labor law you are opening the door to a deluge of goods made by cheap child labor, where they are working from 12 to 14 hours a day, and we can not compete with them.

Senator CLAPP. Do you anticipate that the cotton manufacturers of New England are going to get enthusiastically behind this bill as a matter of competition with the North Carolina or South Carolina people?

Mr. SMYTH. Mr. Mann made that statement in the House, and it was made by Mr. Gardner of Massachusetts.

Senator LIPPITT. What was this statement?

Mr. SMYTH. That the bill should be passed because it was a defense of New England manufacturers and a protection to them and putting them on an equality with the Southern mills or bringing the Southern mills up to an equality with them. You will find that in the Congressional Record.

Senator LIPPITT. You do not believe that, do you?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; I do not. I know that a great many of my friends in Massachusetts are opposed to the passage of this law.

Senator LIPPITT. You do not believe for a minute that the manufacturers of New England are endeavoring to have this bill passed for the purpose of engaging in competition with the South, do you? Mr. SMYTH. Not at all.

Senator LIPPITT. I want to ask you one question. In this bill there is a provision not only that the chilren shall not work more than 8 hours, but also that they shall not work before the hours of 7 o'clock in the morning and after 7 o'clock at night. The history of the textile business has been a gradual reduction in the hours of labor

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir.

Senator LIPPITT. A voluntary reduction in the early stages and a reduction by law in the later stages. In North Carolina, I think, you have no law, have you, with regard to the hours of labor?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; we have.

Senator LIPPITT. That has been very recent, then.

Mr. SMYTH. North Carolina, I think, has had a law for two years, but I am not familiar with it. In South Carolina we have such a law.

Senator LIPPITT. What is the law of South Carolina?

Mr. SMYTH. Ten hours; 60 hours a week. We are allowed to work longer on any one day, but not over 60 hours a week. When we started in business we were working 113 hours. Voluntarily the mills reduced that time to 10 hours before there was any legal requirement, or before the law was passed.

Senator LIPPITT. You, of course, understand that in New England the hours are materially less than in the South, do you not? Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; I so understand.

Senator LIPPITT. Is it not quite reasonable to suppose that in time the hours of labor in the cotton mills will be still further lowered? Mr. SMYTH. I think so.

Senator LIPPITT. That the time will arrive when it will run eight hours a day.

Mr. SMYTH. I think we are heading toward eight hours in time; yes, sir.

Senator LIPPITT. Has it occurred to you to consider under what system the mills might run economically, employing their labor eight hours a day; has it cccurred to you to consider the possibility of running your mill with two shifts of hands, starting, perhaps, at half past 5 or 6 o'clock in the morning for one and running along until 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, or whatever the time is? Mr. SMYTH. That would be provided

Senator LIPPITT. Just a moment-running along to perhaps 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and with another shift of hands running into 10 o'clock at night, or whatever the time would figure out? Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir.

Senator LIPPITT. I believe it is perfectly possible to fix a schedule of labor by which the mills will run practically 16 hours a day with two shifts of hands, all of those people being employed substantially in daylight-not entirely so, but substantially so-and by which the mills can be run quite as economically under the eight-hour basis as they can under the present nine-hour basis in New England. This bill, with this provision which I have referred to, would prevent that. It would seriously increase, or would it not seriously increase, the cost of cotten manufacturing on account of the high cost of machinery in the cotton mills, if you can only keep it in operation such a small part of the time?

Mr. SMYTH. Undoubtedly so; yes, sir. Your fixed charges would remain the same, as well as your taxes, and insurance, and overhead charges.

Senator LIPPITT. I wish you gentlemen would consider quite seriously that particular provision in this bill with regard to the future position of the textile industries of this country with relation to the industries of the world. I think that looking forward to the future development of the industry as at sometime coming to the eight-hour basis, that that provision would perhaps be one of the most economically burdensome of anything there is in this bill.

Senator UNDERWOOD. What class of goods do you spin at Pelzer? Mr. SMYTHI. We make coarse goods altogether-weaving. Senator UNDERWOOD. What are the sizes of the yarns that you make into goods?

Mr. SMYTH. We make from 13s up to 45s.

Senator UNDERWOOD. You said awhile ago that there was a danger of importation. Have you ever known of any serious amount of importations of that class of goods coming into this country heretofore?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; there have been importations of yarns, I think, above 25.

Senator UNDERWOOD. I mean any serious importations, that would amount to as much as 1 per cent of the total spinning capacity of this country.

Mr. SMYTH. Not the total. It would not be a fair proposition. The total spinning capacity of the country is not to be gauged on 13

yarns.

Senator UNDERWOOD. But of that class of yarns, I mean.

Mr. SMYTH. I think it will be as much as 1 per cent of the production of that class of yarns.

Senator UNDERWOOD. As a matter of fact, there are practically no importations into this country of yarns of goods below 40s, are there?

Mr. SMYTH. There has been nothing for two years, but for a few months under the new tariff law it looked very alarming to us. Senator UNDERWOOD. Of goods under the 40s?

Mr. SMYTH. It appeared to be goods of all descriptions.
Senator UNDERWOOD. Are you sure of that?

Mr. SMYTH. I did not say particularly 13 yarns; no, sir.
Senator UNDERWOOD. I suggest that you look into the transactions.
Mr. SMYTH. I mean of the entire output.

Senator UNDERWOOD. Where do you sell those goods?

Mr. SMYTH. Those 13 yarn goods?

Senator UNDERWOOD. I mean the class of goods you are making at Pelzer.

Mr. SMYTH. Largely to the Philippines.

Senator UNDERWOOD. And to the Red Sea ?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; but none to China now because of conditions. there.

Senator UNDERWOOD. In other words, the output of your mills is practically an export trade?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; only about one-third of our productions have gone in export. We make a good many print cloths and we are making bed sheets that are used in this country.

Senator UNDERWOOD. The mills at Pelzer then export at least onethird of your output in competition without a tariff with the mills of Europe and the cheap labor of Europe now?

Mr. SMYTH. I did not say that. I understand we are protected in the Philippines with a preferential duty.

Senator LIPPITT. As a matter of fact, with respect to the Philippines, your goods go free into the Philippines, do they not, and Europeans have to pay 25 per cent?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir.

Senator LIPPITT. And before there was a preferential duty you exported nothing there?

Mr. SMYTH. Practically nothing. That business has increased remarkably in the last few years.

Senator UNDERWOOD. In the Red Sea country you get into competition with the world, do you not?

Mr. SMYTH. In the Red Sea we get what business we have by our personal representatives. I have had a man over there for 12 months.

Senator UNDERWOOD. I did not ask you that. I asked you if you did not get into open competition with the world in the Red Sea. Mr. SMYTH. Not particularly the world. Our competition is principally with Austria, but it is owing to the superior quality of our goods.

Senator UNDERWOOD. I have no doubt that is true, and that is the reason I do not think you need all the tariff and all the protection that you cry for. You are capable of making superior goods. Senator POINDEXTER. What is the rate of tariff on goods of the same quality that you manufacture now under the Underwood tariff? Mr. SMYTH. I could not say. We consider the Underwood tariff

to be inoperative, so there may be no importations now owing to the

war.

Senator POINDEXTER. But you were concerned in it, as you stated, before the war started.

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; we are very much concerned. I have not those figures.

Senator POMERENE. That is, you have not been concerned enough about that tariff to post yourself as to what the tariff rate is? Mr. SMYTH. It has been inoperative.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you tell us what the health and strength of the children employed in these mills are as compared with the health and strength in the towns outside of the cotton mills, and also the health and strength of children in the agricultural region.

Mr. SMYTH. Oh, I would like you to see them and see their con dition. I would like you to come down and see the children in our mill schools, who are the children of our operatives working in the mills, and see their condition and see what they look like. Mr. Lippitt has been there and he has seen them.

The CHAIRMAN. When do they get the recreation that enables them to be healthy?

Mr. SMYTH. On Friday afternoons the mills are shut down at 5 o'clock, and on summer evenings the sun does not set until 8 o'clock and they have three hours of recreation and daylight to play in. But on Saturdays they shut down at 12 o'clock and they have the whole afternoon to play in. They have an hour nooning every day during the week besides.

The CHAIRMAN. And I understood you to say they had half an hour in every two hours.

Mr. SMYTH. The spinners, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is only a portion of them.

Mr. SMYTH. Oh, not the others; not the grown folks.

Senator LIPPITT. How long do the children work on the plantations in South Carolina.

Mr. SMYTH. They work from sun to sun. They pick cotton and work all day in the hot sun.

Senator LIPPITT. Do they have a half holiday on Saturday?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir.

Senator LIPPITT. How many hours a week do they work?

Mr. SMYTH. In the summer they work about 72 hours.

Senator LIPPITT. They work longer than that, do they not?

Mr. SMYTH. They do at some time; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What effect does this life in the factories have or the men and women who come in from the farming regions? Mr. SMYTH. You can not get them to go back to the farm.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they healthier and stronger than when they went there?

Mr. SMYTH. They are just as strong and healthy. The business is not unhealthy in any way, and it was to confirm my belief about that that I kept the statistics.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no tendency then toward race deterioration?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; and no lessening of the birth rate either.

Senator POINDEXTER. Have you made any study of the proposition that you get more efficiency out of the workers on an 8-hour day than on a 10-hour day?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir.

Senator POINDEXTER. You have never studied that question?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; we can not get the same production out of a 10-hour day as we do out of 11.

Senator POINDEXTER. In many employments it has been discovered, has it not, that you get as much result from an 8-hour day as you formerly did from a 10-hour day?

Mr. SMYTH. That may be the case, say, with a bricklayer or where the work is done largely by the individual or manual labor, but in the cotton mills it is the machinery. A speed is set; it is run at a certain speed, and the operative simply attends that machine. There is no heavy lifting and no straining at all.

Senator POINDEXTER. But constant mental application?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; they watch the looms; they are automatic looms and run alone for two or three hours.

Senator POINDEXTER. Then, according to that it is neither physical labor nor mental application.

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; I wish there would be more mental application about it. You would be surprised to see the amount of visiting in the cotton mills. The hands start the automatic looms up, and they run for an hour or an hour and a half without any attention, and then the weaver is in another part of the factory talking to somebody. The work is confining; there is that much to be said about it.

Senator POINDEXTER. You said it was impossible to have two shifts of eight hours each, but I did not understand your explanation as to why it was impossible.

Mr. SMYTH. Well, it would be impossible for us, because of the scarcity of labor. We want labor now, and if we were to run to-day on an 8-hour shift and not pay them as much as on a 10-hour shift they would not be willing to run to work for it. There has been no effort on the part of our people to lessen the hours of work, but they want more money. I have been asked to make this explanation as to the work that is done by the children in the spinning room. The spinning room is simply converting coarse yarns into finer yarns. The fine bobbins are set down below and the coarse ones are set up above, and that cotton yarn is drawn through rolls and the twist is put in it, and the result is finer yarn.

Now the work of spinning is simply to keep those ends up. If it breaks down the spinner pieces it up. She does not put those bobbins up above nor does she put them on the spindle. Her duty is simply to do the piecing when it is necessary to be done.

Now the doffer is simply the boy, who is generally from 16 to 18 years, who comes along and takes those bobbins off, those full bobbins, and puts on the empty bobbins, and while he is doing that the spinner is doing nothing; she can go off and play. When the doffer gets through with his rounds he is at liberty to go out into the yard and play. He is whistled for when he is wanted. There is no physical labor about it. All you can say about it is the confinement.