Manchester, some of whose remarks he | found a very large majority, in fact, you had endeavoured to use as being favour- might almost say the whole, against the able to his views with regard to a pro- proposals. Here, at any rate, the had tective tariff, and he would assure the practically the unanimous voice of the right hon. Gentleman and the House representatives of the trades unions and likewise that his good wishes would be of the co-operative movement in this appreciated not only by Mr. Kelly country. He thought that they had some himself but by all of them who were reason to understand this question for interested in this great question. Whilst themselves. Fortunately, they were not the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman now quite so illiterate and ignorant as were endorsed by all of them, he ventured they might have been during the year to say Mr. Kelly would be a great 1840, and thereabouts, the time to which acquisition to this House, to them at any the right hon. Member had referred, and rate who directly represented labour, they had an opportunity now at all although if he were a Member there events of considering some of these things. would be one vote the less for the views The hon. Baronet the Member for the held by the right hon. Gentleman, Northwich Division referred to the trades because the Gentleman who now repre- unions as being one of the things which sented the division which Mr. Kelly was to some extent injured the industries of contesting was a very strong supporter this country. He was not one who would of the right hon. Gentleman's views. It stand up here or anywhere else and say would be one more to their side if Mr. Kelly that trades unions had not made any were returned, and therefore he wished him mistakes, and that they had not done every success in his election campaign. very unwise things on some occasions; but he claimed that there were employers as bad as any trades union had ever been. It was the bad employers, the oppressive employers, who were really the cause of the inception of trades unionism; and whilst perhaps a trades union in one instance might have shown some stubbornness in refusing to nego tiate with the employers, he would guarantee that on the other side they could find five employers who were equally stubborn in refusing to negotiate with the union. He knew what this stubbornness was, and the employers knew what it was, and unless both employers and representatives of trades unions could exercise a little commonsense and come together and discuss these things in a proper and friendly and amicable way, they might expect similar things to occur in the future. He had had some experience in this matter; and he ventured to say that where there were good feelings existing between the representatives of the trades unions and the representatives of the employers they heard little or nothing of strikes or any troubles of the kind. He thought it would be well at this juncture if he were to state the views of the representatives of labour on this great question, although some tendency had been shown to despise, perhaps, any observations made by those who were placed in the front rank of the movement and were endeavouring to lead the men as far as their own lights would enable them. The representatives of the great labour movement issued a manifesto to the whole of the workers of this country, and the result on being analysed showed that out of thirteen labour members in this House, the twelve who were presentone was absent at the time through illness -signed this manifesto; out of forty-four directors of the Co-operative Wholesale Society, thirty-seven signed the manifesto; and of the members of the Central Board of the Co-operative Union, numbering eighty, seventy-three signed the manifesto. Of the thirteen members of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades Union Congress one was bedridden for many months, but the other twelve signed the manifesto; the Committee representing the whole of the trades unions by federation numbered altogether sixteen, and fourteen of them signed the manifesto; and of the twenty-three labour representatives who formed the Moseley Commission to America sixteen signed the manifesto. So that here they And, it being Midnight, the debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed this day. Adjourned at one minute after Speech indicates revision by the Member. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, 12th February, 1904. PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS. The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been compiled with :-Ilford Urban District Council. And also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the follow- [H.L.]; South Staffordshire Mines Drainage Bill [H.L.]; Tynemouth Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Ulster Electric Power Bill [H.L.; Weaver Navigation (Additional Finance) Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a. RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. TREATY SERIES, No. 2 (1904). Convention respecting payment of light and harbour dues by vessels of the United States in Zanzibar; signed at Washington, 5th June, 1903. (Ratifications exchanged at Washington, 24th December, 1903.) Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table. ARMY (MILITARY SAVINGS BANKS). Statement of the amount due by the public to depositors in Military Savings Banks on the 31st March, 1901, and of the receipts, interest, and disbursements in the said Military Savings Banks during the year next ensuing, ended on the 31st March, 1902, etc. SUPERANNUATION. Treasury Minute, dated 4th February, 1904, granting a retired allowance to Edward Joseph Carey, late a messenger in the office of the Chief Secretary, Dublin Castle. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. NEW BILLS. POLLING ARRANGEMENTS (PARLIA MENTARY BOROUGHS) BILL [H.L.] (No 9.) Appleby Corporation Gas Bill [H.L.]; Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Bill [H.L.]: Bournemouth Corporation (Tramways) Bill [H.L.]; Bridlington Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Bristol Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Buxton Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Chesterfield Corporation (Tramways and Improvements) Bill [H.L.]; Chesterfield Gas and Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Derwent Valley Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Ebbw Vale Urban District Water Bill [H.L.]; Filey Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Harrogate Waterworks Tramroad Bill [H.L.; Holywood Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Huddersfield Corporation Act, 1902 (Amendment), Bill [H.L.]; Ipswich Dock Commission Bill [H.L.]; Leeds Corporation (Waterworks) Railway Bill [H.L.]; Manchester Corporation Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [H.L]; Milwr and District Mines Drainage Bill [H.L.]; Minehead Urban District Council Water Bill [H.L.]; Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Nuneaton and Chilvers Coton Urban District Council Bill HL.]; Oakengates, Dawley, and District Joint Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Preston Corporation Water Bill [H.L.; Were presented by the Lord RibblesShipley Urban District Council Bill dale; read 1a, and to be printed. VOL. CXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.] 2 S A Bill to amend the law relating to the arrangement of polling districts in Parliamentary boroughs and POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY COUN- A Bill to make further provision with respect to the arrangement of polling districts for the election of county councillors. BILL [H.L.]. NEWCASTLE CHAPTER(AMENDMENTS) sure every member of your Lordships' House will join with me in hoping that the noble Earl will soon be restored to health and able to again take his place at the A Bill to make further provisions for the foundation of a dean and chapter of Newcastle, and for other purposes connected therewith. Was presented by the Lord Bishop of St. Albans; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 11.) THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will have learned with regret, from the Motion, which I have placed on the Paper, that the noble Earl who presides over our Committees is prevented for a time through illness from discharging those duties which he has for so many years performed greatly to his own credit, and, I believe, entirely to the satisfaction of the House. My noble friend has been advised by his medical attendants to seek rest for a time, and, in those circumstances, it is necessary to make arrangements for the performance of his duties until his return. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name, and I feel Table. Moved, That the Lord Balfour be appointed to take the Chair in the Committee of the Whole House, and in all Committees upon Private Bills in the absence of the Chairman of Committees from illness.(The Marquess of Lansdowne.) EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I am sure everyone in the House will join with the noble Marquess in the regret which he has expressed at the illness of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees, and in the hope that the noble Earl may be very soon restored to health, so that he may again occupy the position which he fills so admirably, and to the entire satis faction of the House. We shall all be glad to support the proposition of the noble Marquess, that, in the absence of Lord Morley, Lord Balfour of Burleigh should discharge the duties of Chairman of Committees. THE EARL OF CORK: My Lords, I hope I may be allowed to join in the feeling expressed by the noble Marquess opposite and by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition. I regret that for some little time to come Lord Morley will be prevented from occupying the place which he so well fills in this House. Having been for so many years closely connected with railway and other matters, I feel deeply his absence from the House. He has discharged his duties feeling of affection which is entertained most ably, and I know perfectly well the towards him by everybody who has been brought into contact with him. I know also the feeling towards him of the railway officials who have had to deal with him, and I feel certain it is the hearty wish of all that the noble Earl may of Committees a position which he has soon make his reappearance as Chairman so admirably filled for many years past. of Committees, and trust that before long he may be restored to perfect health and again be in his place. On Question, Motion agreed to. LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I am sure the House will allow me to express very humbly my deep sense of the honour which has been conferred upon me, and the confidence which is placed in me, in allowing me to take this. place for a time. It has come upon me with great suddenness, for I only knew of the possibility of it twenty-four hours ago. I will do my best to carry on the work for the time being in the same spirit, so far as I can imitate it, as the noble Earl who has filled the position for the last fifteen years, and no one will be more glad than myself when the noble Earl is able to resume the duties. CHINESE LABOUR IN THE Order of the Day read for the adjourned debate on the Motion of the Marquess of Ripon, That an humble address be presented to His Majesty's Government for Papers relating to the affairs of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, with special reference to the question of the employment of Chinese labour in the Transvaal." EARL GREY: My Lords, as I listened yesterday to the speech of the noble Earl who initiated this discussion and who I regret not to see in his place to-day, and to the speech of the noble Marquess who followed him, I could not help feeling that those speeches supplied a very melancholy and a most forcible illustration of the danger connected with the attempt to rule a country six thousand miles away from this House. I do not think it would be possible to conceive a state of things more remote from the actual truth than the supposition of the noble Lord and the noble Marquess that the effect of the temporary employment of indentured Asiatics would be to oust or exclude British labour from the Transvaal. The exact opposite is the truth. On the contrary, the desire to employ, for a time, indentured Asiatics, which exists throughout the length and breadth of the Transvaal, arises from a profound conviction in the minds of men who have felt the hard pinch and stress of adverse circumstances that (1) if they are to provide employment for the new stream of British immigrants coming into the country, (2) if the Transvaal is to provide employment for the British population now resident exodus of the settlers who have been in the Colony, and (3) if the threatened attracted to the Transvaal is to be averted, it is absolutely necessary to have recourse to the measure which now engages the attention of the House. The noble Earl who initiated this debate went so far as to declare that in his opinion it was the policy of Lord Milner to exclude British labour from the Transvaal. Does not the noble Lord know, what I thought everyone in this country knew, that it is the hope and ambition of Lord Milner to lay the secure foundation of a future British federation of self-governing States from the Zambesi to the Cape, and that the only hope of his policy being a success depends on attracting so large an influx of British settlers into South Africa as to make it absolutely impossible that South Africa will ever again become the scene of a race conflict between the Briton and the Boer? It is for this reason, and for this reason principally, because the temporary employment of Asiatic indentured labour will enable the Transvaal to provide employment, and highly-paid employment, for thousands of British artisans for whom under present conditions no employment can be found, that Lord Milner and everyone else who has at heart the hopes of seeing a peaceful and prosperous South Africa, attaches so much importance to the passage of the measure which has now been read a third time by the Legislative Council of the Transvaal. I should have thought when I had stated that, that if that reason could be proved, it was sufficient for my argument; but, if I am not trespassing on the indulgence of your Lordships, may I adduce one or two reasons why I believe that the temporary employment of indentured Asiatics cannot result in the exclusion of British labour from the Transvaal as the noble Marquess seems to think it will? It has been my privilege to pay repeated visits to South Africa, and, although it may be difficult for any Englishman who has not visited that country to realise the fact, it is nevertheless a fact, which confronts one at every turn after one once enters South Africa, that the white man will not do work which he considers is specially the I do not wish to bore your Lordships with any reference to technical points, but I am aware that there is a gentleman— Mr. Creswell by name-who is an enthusiast on the subject of white labour -as, indeed, we all are-and he has made, perfectly honestly and with great ability, experiments which he hopes will prove that it is possible to replace unskilled coloured labour with unskilled white labour. I think, however well-meaning and enthusiastic he may be-and I, for one, sympathise with the attempt he has made to solve this problem-the whole weight of testimony is against it. All the mining engineers and the managers of the mines on the Rand, with his exception, believe that the substitution of unskilled white labour for native workers has proved costly and unsatisfactory; the work performed having varied from the maximum of the work of one white man being equal to that of two nativeswhich is a large assumption-to the minimum of one white being only equal to a native, whilst the pay was in the ratio of ten shillings for a white man as against two shillings for a black. The increased cost of working the mines by unskilled white labour is so excessive as to make it eco omically an impossible proposition. On the favourable assumption that a white man at twelve shillings a day would do quite as much work as a Kaffir at 2s.4d. per day, the average cost per ton is increased 10s. 1d., which would have a disastrous effect on the mines in the Witwatersrand area. province of the Kaffir; I have seen their eyes contract and scintillate with hate and indignation when British artisans have been asked to do work which they consider would be degrading and would reduce them to the level of a Kaffir. Unless this House recognises this primary and essential fact I am afraid it is hardly in a position to solve the problem which stands before it to-day. Apart from that fact, you have the economic fact that it is impossible to work the mines with white labour except, under present conditions, at a rate of wage which no white man should be asked to accept. When the cost of living is reduced the position may be altered, but we have got to reduce the cost of living first. There are only two ways in which you can effect a reduction in the cost of living in South Africa-one is by growing the food required in South Africa in the country, instead of importing it from across the seas. Well, if we are to grow in South Africa the food required in the Transvaal, you must not tempt with very high wages all the available unskilled Kaffir labour for work in the mines. The employment of indentured Asiatics, under careful regulations, in the mines will set free a supply of Kaffir labour for work upon the land, and so make the first essential factor of cheap living possible, for it will enable the agricultural industry of South Africa to be developed with greater success than at present. The other factor in lessening the cost of living is the reduction of taxation and of railway rates. How are you to reduce railway rates unless you can command a large volume of traffic? Every gentleman connected with the administration of railways knows that the rate on railways is dependent on the volume of traffic that passes over the line. The volume of traffic is dependent on a prosperous mining industry, which is the successful pivot of all industry in South Africa; and a prosperous mining industry, again, depends upon being able to demand an adequate supply of unskilled labour. I therefore come back to the necessity of the temporary importation of indentured Asiatics in order that the mining industries should be prosperous, the volume of traffic large, the rates low, taxes reduced, and, consequently, the cost of living brought within limits which may render it possible to make experiments with population, counting men, women, white labour. you It was my business two or three years ago to examine very closely the relation between the numbers of coloured unskilled labourers and the numbers of the white population, and I found, to my surprise and I think it was a matter of general surprise-that, whether looked to Johannesburg, to Rhodesia, or to Kimberley you found the same curious coincidence that the number of unskilled coloured labourers corresponded very closely with the white population. Subsequent experience has, I believe, confirmed that first discovery, and I see it anticipated by those who have given a very close attention to this question that for every thousand Chinamen you import for a term into the Transvaal, you will have an addition of 800 to your white and children. Let me endeavour to |