any time advanced to temporal power should be | ought not to be suffered to practise in Dublin. softened or qualified. To the principle of ex- Of the causes which had led to the late distending the political rights of the Catholics no turbances in Ireland, and the present condition objection could be made; but it was for the of that country, absenteeism and difference of wisdom of the legislature to consider whether religion appeared to him to be among the most such a measure could be accompanied with se- prominent. Want of employment, inability to curities against the occurrence of any new mis- procure subsistence by honest means, the exchiefs. He had not hitherto seen such securities cessive population, the subinfeudation of lands, proposed. the poverty and wretchedness of the people, bad ARTHUR IRWIN KELLY, Esq.-Was sove- moral education, worse habits, familiarity with reign of the city of Armagh. In twenty years' vice and crime, discontent with their condition, experience as a magistrate of the county of disregard for the laws, a continual experience Armagh, had never known any religious par- and discussion of their comparative degradation, tialities shewn by the magistrates in the admi-leading to disaffection for the existing establishnistration of justice. The county of Armagh ments of church and state; those comprehended was very densely peopled. The houses of some the further causes of the existing evil that he of the peasantry were comfortable; but those of could undertake specially to name. With rethe inferior description were very miserable, gard to the measures that he would recommend and their habitual food was potatoes, oatmeal, for ameliorating the condition of Ireland, he and milk. He thought that if they were not had no hesitation in stating that he considered excited by agitators, either on one side or on the concession of Catholic emancipation their the other, the Roman Catholics and the Pro- groundwork. Until that was accomplished, there testants would live on very amicable terms. The would be no peace. He would then most more sober-minded and calm description of Pro- strongly recommend the abolition of 40s. freetestant was friendly to Catholic emancipation, holders, which he considered a great grievance. upon qualified and fair terms. An increase in He was also a great advocate for a liberal provithe qualification for the elective franchise would, sion for the Roman Catholic clergy. He would in his opinion, be beneficial, by preventing the strongly advise that employment should be subdivision of land which had led to the po- provided by all possible means; that a taste for verty he had described, and by diminishing the cleanliness and comfort should be created, which commission of perjury. It would also tend to would raise the people in their own estimation, create something like a yeomanry in the coun- and lead them to avoid early marriages, and try. He thought the present moment was ex- calculate upon the means of supporting families tremely favourable to Catholic emancipation, if before they encumbered themselves with them; accompanied by proper securities. The grand that good moral education should be introduced, juries appeared to him to possess too unlimited without offering any violence to the conflicting a power over the public money, more especially opinions that prevailed on the subject of relias applied to the making of roads; surveyors gion; that some provision should be made for of which ought, in his opinion, to be appointed. the destitute, old, and infirm, &c. So far was The Right Hon. ROBERT PEEL, a Member he from thinking that concession to the Cathoof the Committee.-Explained the circumstances lics would endanger the Protestant establishwhich had induced him to order that a man ment, that he was persuaded it would add to of the name of Kienevan, a Roman Catholic, the security of our establishments, both in who was instrumental in saving the lives of church and state. The present mode of levysae persons who were shipwrecked in Tramore ing county rates in Ireland was, in his opinion, Bay, should receive a pecuniary reward instead illegal. The whole of the grand jury system of being employed in the revenue service. required revision and correction; and district engineers ought to be appointed to superintend the public works. The Tithe Composition Bill had been put into effect in many parts of the county of Cork, and appeared to be a very salutary measure. ROBERT DE LA COUR, Esq.- Resided at Mallow, in the county of Cork. Never knew that country more tranquil than at present. The condition of the peasantry was wretched in the extreme; although the conduct of the landlords (except perhaps some of the middle- Mr. MATTHEW BARRINGTON.-Was crown then) was kind and indulgent. The increase solicitor for the Munster circuit. The duty of of the population had been enormous within his crown solicitor was to prosecute all cases direcollection, owing in a great measure to the rected to be prosecuted by Government and by practice of underletting land; which he consi- the Attorney-General. In October, 1821, the dered to be one of the great evils affecting Ire- county of Limerick was in a very desperate land. The reports of the conduct of some of state; murders, burnings, breaking houses, outthe magistracy were formerly very unfavour- rages of every description were committed able; but since the revision of that body those there; but a great number of offences remained reports had considerably improved. He thought unpunished, from the difficulty of obtaining evithe business of the quarter sessions was too dence. By increased exertion on the part of mich hurried; and that the assistant barrister the police, that evil had been corrected; and very few of those offences now remained undis-nufactures would improve the condition of Ireposed of. The frequency of administering oaths land very much; and he thought granting in Ireland produced a great indifference to Catholic emancipation would be the fore-runner them, and consequently the commission of per- to that introduction, as the English merchants jury. In some of the minor courts he under- would be inclined to send capital to Ireland, if stood that the foreman of the jury, before he they could depend on the tranquillity of the would deliver in the verdict, demanded what country. He was of opinion, that the abolition was called the modus, which was a jug of punch. of 40s. freeholds would be very beneficial, if The manor-courts ought, in his opinion, to be attended by Catholic emancipation. abolished. Great benefit would, he thought, accrue from raising the 40s. freeholds to 107. The present state of the law in Ireland, as between Catholic and Protestant, kept the country in a state of fever and agitation. He could not see how the carrying of the question called Catholic emancipation could endanger the existence or the interests of the established church. It would render the Catholics much more satisfied with the administration of justice, if they saw Catholics in high judicial situations. The Right Hon. LORD CARBERY.-Explained the reasons which had induced him not to interfere in the case of an alleged oppression of an under-tenant of his, respecting which case evidence had been given before the Committee. He did not think that a landlord in Ireland had as great a facility of getting possession of his land, when it was out of lease, and the tenant chose to hold it, as he ought to have. The disturbances at Castlehaven originated in claims of tithe. At a time when scarcely any landlord in the district had received half his rent, the clergyman of Castlehaven, Mr. Morritt, an English gentleman, having received £2,400 out of £2,700, being the full amount of three years' income of his living, distrained for the residue. A resistance, and a contest, in which a policeman, a bailiff, and two of the country people, lost their lives, ensued; and, in the end, the policemen were beaten off, and the cattle rescued. Within two or three months afterwards, Mr. Morritt resigned the living; his successor agreed with the parish for his tithes, under the Composition Act, at £650 a year; and there had not been the least murmur since. He had always observed the greatest indulgence to their tenants on the part of the landlords, and also on the part of the middle-men, except the lower classes of them. He was of opinion, that the establishment of petty sessions had been very beneficial. He thought that the mode in which business was conducted before grand juries was generally fair and impartial. Possibly, there might be some improvement in the system by which roads were presented for. The manor The Rev. WILLIAM O'BRIEN, D.D.-Acted as the parish priest of the parish of Doneraile, and was vicar-general of the diocese of Cloyne. Explained some inaccuracies in the evidence given before the Committee of last session with respect to the conviction of a person for burning some houses in the district of Doneraile. He had on that occasion, at the hazard of his life, used every means to prevail on the people of his parish to bring in the arms in their possession, but had been defeated by the drunkenness of some unfortunate ruffians. The burning system originated in the enforcing of tithes and rackrents, some very inhuman instances of which had occurred. He thought a great deal of good would result from raising the 40s. freeholds to 101. It would be an excellent substitute for the wretched policy, which, fortunately for Ireland, was rapidly decreasing, of giving grounds to middle-men, to set to under-tenants at a rack rent. He had considerable apprehension, if a provision were made by the state for the Roman Catholic clergy, that in the event of future irritation, the people might fancy that their clergy had been bribed to desert their interests. How-courts might be advantageously abolished, if ever, that might not be the case if they found that the law was impartially administered, which they at present believed it was not. He was persuaded that the passing of the Emancipation Bill would be, in the minds of the Irish people, the beginning of a new and amended order of things; and if unfavourable impressions were not revived by what the people would consider new acts of injustice and hostility towards them, he thought a kindly feeling would arise towards those who derived under the government, including the Roman Catholic clergy. other means were afforded the people of recovering small debts. If the magistrates had the power of deciding in the petty sessions court for the same amount of debt as the seneschal in his court, the business would be better done, and the manor-courts might then be dispensed with. He had heard the apprehension on the part of English capitalists, that there was a want of security in Ireland, assigned as a reason that English capital had been prevented from going to Ireland to any great degree. But from observation he should say, that he thought ALEXANDER O'DRISCOL, Esq.-Was a the very introduction of the capital itself would magistrate of the county of Cork, residing near effect the purpose of securing it, by producing Skibbereen. Thought the introduction of the employment. The fears of the English manupetty sessions an improvement in the mode of facturer were much exaggerated. He should administering justice; but conceived that the not himself feel any more apprehension than he system of grand juries might be advantageously would in Yorkshire. At the expiration of the reformed. He thought the introduction of ma-lease of one of his estates, of G00 acres, of which 150 were rough pasture that had never been | vided their repentance was sincere; but under tilled, he found forty-seven families upon it. no other circumstances could they receive a valid He was able to retain only twenty-five; the other twenty-two went away without a murmur, and he never could learn what became of them. This was one of numerous instances which occurred on the expiration of long leases. He thought that any measure which would alter the qualification for the elective franchise from 40s. to £10 would be beneficial. He also thought that the feelings of the people would be more connected with the government, if they knew there was a certain relation established between the government and their priests. JOHN CURRIE, Esq.-Was assistant barrister for the county of Londonderry. Thought the office of assistant barrister a useful one. Believed the people were satisfied with the administration of justice at the quarter sessions. The Civil Bill Act was beginning to work very well. Described the nature of the proceedings in the Civil Bill court. The petty sessions had been very advantageous. Was of opinion, that the grand jury presentments respectir, roads were not free from objection, and that they gave rise to jobs. THEOPHILUS JONES, Esq.-Was assistant barrister for the county of Leitrim. Never heard any complaints of the administration of justice in the assistant barristers' court. Thought the present law, with respect to the maintenance of illegitimate children, extremely imperfect in Ireland, and that frequent exposure was the result of it. Was apprehensive that perjury was not uncommon in the Civil Bill courts. The Right Reverend DOCTOR MURRAY, Roman Catholic Archbishop of DUBLIN. (Again examined.)—There were certain festivals celebrated by the Roman Catholics in Ireland; but he was not prepared to say that they were detrimental to the Protestant or any other church. Although it was a duty to pray that heresy, as an evil, should be removed from the human mind, it did not appear to him that there was any opposition between such a prayer and civil allegiance to the state. No unjust excommunication or other inducement on the part of the Pope ought to prevail on a Catholic to transgress the allegiance he owed to his sovereign. In resisting such an excommunication or inducement, he would not renounce his religion, but would act in conformity to its principles, which taught him, that undivided allegiance was due to the sovereign of the realm in which he lived, and in which protection was afforded him. The Catholic bishops of Ireland had not the least idea of looking to the restitution of the right of sitting in the House of Lords. It would be absurd to think of it; no such right attached to the office of a bishop; it was attached to the dignity of a baron, which was held from the crown. Roman Catholic priests could absolve sinners toties quoties, pro absolution. Under no circumstances could the consecration-oath interfere with the allegiance which was due from Roman Catholic bishops to their sovereign. It was only canonical obedience that they promised to the Pope, as the spiritual head of their church. The duties which they owed to the Pope, and those which they owed to their King, when properly understood, were parallel lines which could never meet: their object was wholly distinct. It was absolutely impossible that the deposing power of the Pope should be revived; any pretension of that kind was extinguished for ever. That Roman Catholics did not admit the doctrine that faith was not to be kept with heretics, was allowed in all the occurrences of private and even public life, by their severest opponents. They found their Protestant monarch entering into treaties of alliance with the Catholic sovereigns of Portugal and France, and dreading as little the violation of those treaties as if they were formed with his Protestant ally of Prussia. In Protestant courts of justice, where life and liberty were at stake, the oaths of Catholics were considered sufficiently valid to determine those important objects. When Dr. Troy was bishop of Ossory, in 1784 and in 1786, he addressed pastoral letters to his flock, which had the effect of tranquillising the disturbances of those periods; as also in 1793, when he was Roman Catholic archbishop in Dublin; and at the commencement of the late disturbances, Dr. Doyle addressed a pastoral letter to his diocese, which produced a very powerful and happy effect on the minds of the people. The Rev. GEORGE HAY.-Was the senior minister of the Presbyterian congregation of Derry. He estimated the Presbyterian population of the county of Derry at 70,000, and the other Protestants at 27,000. The population of the county was 193,865; which left the remaining part of the population, composed of Roman Catholics, 96,865. The proportion of the Protestant population to the Roman Catholic population, in the counties of Antrim and Down, he supposed was four to one. He thought the feeling of Catholic to Protestant, and of Protestant to Catholie, in Derry, was a kind and forbearing one, although there had been a considerable addition of party-spirit within the last two years. That spirit, however, had considerably subsided; which he attributed in a great measure to the suppression of the Catholic Association. His opinion was, that, from different causes, the feeling in favour of Catholic emancipation, if accompanied by the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy, and the abolition of 40s. freeholders, had increased among the Presbyterians in connexion with the synod of Ulster. What would make it more palatable to a large portion of the Protestant population, would he the King's having either the appointment of the Roman Catholic bishops, or a veto in their nomination. gradually becoming estranged. This he attri buted to the agitation of the question of emancipation, the publications which had emanated from the Catholic Association, and the influence which their priests exercised over the Catholics. He was persuaded that the Catholic peasantry cared little about the matter. The Protestant part of the population were decidedly against further concession; at least, it was so in 1819, although within the last two or three years a different feeling, to a slight degree, might perhaps have been excited. In his county the great body of the Protestants were apprehensive of the consequences that would result to them from granting Catholic emancipation. He had no doubt that the Roman Catholic hierarchy looked to the Church Establishment as their hereditary right, and he knew several strong instances which proved that the Catholics looked to the property of the country, now possessed by the Protestants, as their hereditary right,—as having been taken from them by conquest. He had, however, never heard of either Catholics or Protestants objecting to purchase land on the ground of its having been held under a forfeited title. But those Catholics who had acquired property under the Act of Settlement by purchase, were few indeed, in comparison with those who might advance claims to the old forfeited lands of the kingdom. He most certainly believed that those claims were distinctly preserved and retained amongst the great body of the Roman Catholics of Ireland; that they were handed down from father to son; and that in the event of any favourable opportunity offering, an attempt would be made to enforce them. Of course, in a country in which there existed so many discontented subjects, a larger military force was necessary for the Government; and he would apply the restraint of that force until the Catholics saw there was no use in further efforts to subvert the existing establishments. Employment, a more general residence of gentlemen in the country, the encouragement of fisheries, and other matters of that nature, would all tend to occupy the minds of the people, give them fair and legitimate sources of acquiring wealth, and gradually reconcile ther Mr. JAMES CROPPER. Was a merchant of Liverpool, who had lately visited Ireland for the purpose of inquiring into the means of providing employment for the people of that country. Had no doubt that, supposing all the local circumstances of Ireland, of a political and moral nature, to be similar to those existing in this country, the flax, the cotton, the woollen, and the silk trade, would be established in Ireland with considerable advantage to those who might commence such an undertaking. But, from an apprehension of the insecurity of property, not only was there a disinclination at present to invest English capital in Ireland, in the erection of mills and machinery, &c. but Irish capital was coming over to this country. If a feeling existed that property was secure in Ireland, he thought that capital could be vested in the establishment of manufactures there with greater advantage at the present moment than in the extension of manufactures in Great Britain. But the situation of the countries was different. There was not a habit of industry in Ireland, and it would take considerable time to establish it. The great evil, however, was the irritation occasioned by the Catholic question. He knew of some parties that intended to lay out money with a view to the future establishing of manufactures in Ireland, who, hearing the bill was likely to be thrown out in the House of Lords, changed that intention. Although at present the demand might not be sufficient, yet, if the principles of free trade were generally applied and acted upon, he had no doubt that a foreign demand would exist, which, combined with the domestic demand, would give full employment to the people of Ireland, were they engaged in manufactures. The introduction of a great number of Irish labourers into this country had had the effect of lowering the rate of wages of the English people employed; the multiplication of steam-boats had much facilitated the emigration of the former; and it was decidedly his opinion, that if a state of comfort were not established in Ireland, the distress of Ireland must come to as they were formerly reconciled-to be this country in the end. If something were not done to give employment to the Irish people at home, the two countries would very much assimilate; and the present state of the Catholic question was one of the things which prevented that employment from being given. Colonel JOHN IRWIN.- Was a magistrate, and resided at Tanragoe, within eight miles of Sligo. Within the last two or three years considerable distrust and alarm existed between the Protestants and Catholics in his part of the country. Prior to 1790, the feelings of Roman Catholics and Protestants were exceedingly cordial; but since that period they had been admitted no further into the legislature. He certainly would not re-enact the penal laws, nor would he enact any other law against the Catholics; but he would repeal the law which admitted them to the elective franchise, out of which he thought that all the evils of the present day had arisen. If Catholic emancipation were granted, he was convinced the agitation would still proceed until they had obtained the Church Establishment, and ultimately, if England were at war with a Roman Catholic power, the dissolution of the Union. The Right Hon. Lord FORBES, M. P.— Was a pretty constant resident in the county of All de Longford; and was convinced that the decision association, and the circulation of prophecies upon the Catholic question which had taken announcing the destruction of heresy. The place in the House of Lords, would, in the course of two or three years, produce disturbance in his neighbourhood; a large proportion of the inhabitants of which were Catholics, who had entertained a strong hope that the civil disabilities affecting them would be removed this session. That hope was founded upon a proper feeling of pride, from a wish to be placed on a level with their fellow-subjects. He was of opinion that the feeling of hostility on the part of the Protestants towards the Catholics had materially diminished; and that even many of the Protestant clergy had arrived at the conviction that Catholic emancipation was the only measure that could tranquillise Ireland, and secure their property in the church. He was convinced that the Roman Catholics were, at that moment, ready to give any security which they considered consistent with the tenets of their religion. The Roman Catholic bishops and the Roman Catholic clergy, in Ireland, had uniformly assisted the magistrates in maintaining the tranquillity of the country. In the event of the Catholic question being carried, he did not conceive that there was any other question that could by possibility unite the whole mass of the Catholics of Ireland in pursuit of one common object. As to the Union, the majority of them felt that it had been beneficial to the interests of Ireland. Nor did he think it at all likely that the Catholics would combine for the purpose of overthrowing the established church. He never could conceive it possible that such an idea could enter their minds as to recover possession of the forfeited estates; and although he believed that such a report was industriously circulated for purposes of party, he was quite sure that no man of common sense could believe it. Mr. REDMOND READE.-Was a provision and butter-merchant in Kilkenny, and complained of the illegal manner in which tolls were levied on cattle at fairs in Ireland. JOHN GODLEY, Esq.-Was a magistrate of the counties of Leitrim and Cavan. Of late years the Catholic and Protestant peasantry in his neighbourhood had not been on as friendly a footing with each other as formerly. Both parties waylaid and severely beat each other; but there had been more waylaying on the part of the Roman Catholics than on that of the Protestants. The great bulk of the Protestants were decidedly adverse to the concession of the Roman Catholic claims; conceiving that the Catholics looked eventually for supremacy. He did not think the jealousies which existed between the different sects would be subdued by carrying the Catholic question. The Catholic population in his vicinity were, in the early part of the present year and the conclusion of the last, in a state of great excitement, occasioned by the speeches, as he understood, at the Catholic Protestants were much alarmed; expecting ANTHONY RICHARD BLAKE, Esq., again examined.-Detailed the alterations in the existing laws regarding landlords and tenants, which appeared to him calculated to put a stop to the practice of sub-letting in Ireland. Adverted to the declaration which he had made in that Committee, and more strongly in the Com. mittee of the House of Lords, that, although a Catholic, he should object to any settlement of the Catholic question that tended to disturb the Protestant establishment, which he considered a main link in the connexion between Great Britain and Ireland; with which connexion he was satisfied the interests of Ireland were essentially identified. As it had been imputed to T |