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conceived that it would be better for the oc- manufacturers in the country were a better cupier of the soil that his rent should be pro- race of people; that they had better health. portioned to what he raised off that soil, and not He had not read any recent works upon the from the precarious thing of a manufacture. health of manufacturing towns, in which the By his last answer he meant to declare it to be point was denied that they were less healthy his opinion, that it would be better for the in.. than agricultural districts. Ile thought that terests of the country that the weavers should the linen manufacture might be carried on be a separate class of persons from the farmers, cheaper in towns, by capitalists employing a and be congregated into villages. The division number of manufacturers in those towns, than of labour was one reason. His opinion was, it was carried on now in the country, in the that the two things ought to be separate, farm- dispersed manner in which it was ; because exing and manufacturing. His reasons were, the perienced manufacturers would supply the people want of experience in a person that was half with yarns properly sorted; when improve. farmer and half manufacturer ; a want of expe- ments took place in looms, in the tackle of those rience in adapting himself to all the improve- looms, and the various things concerned in, ments going on; he was a merchant as well as he could furnish them, and put them upon a manufacturer; he bought his own yarn, and he proper method of going through the manufacture, sold his own cloth : he would be much better off, which they now knew nothing about ; the in his (the witness's) opinion, if he received article being produced cheaper by extensive that yarn from a large dealer in it, got it pro- manufacturers engaging in it. It was weavers perly sorted to his hand, so that he lost no time he would bring to live in towns; the women in going to market, buying and preparing it, might spin. In small towns they would not but commenced weaving as soon as one web was be at a much greater expense for their lodgings out and another in the loom. It must certainly than they would be if they lived at some dis. be a great advantage to employ the females of tance in the country. He had already said he his family in spinning yarn, that otherwise would not separate the spinning from the weavwould be doing nothing. If he were to go and ing in the same house; and he was aware that buy all his yarn, although he might in that case the children actually, from the age of four years employ his family in spinning, it would not be old upwards, were employed in houses where for his own particular use. He could see no ad. the manufacture was carried on in assisting vantage in separating the businesses of spinning in some branch of it from the earliest stage. and weaving. He did not admit that the prin. He did not, however, contemplate any such ciple he had just suggested, namely, the prin- thing as that a capitalist establishing this maciple of division of labour, went to shew that nufacture in towns should be obliged to pay the process of spinning and the process of weav- for the labour of all parts of the family which ing would be better conducted if they were took a part in it: the capitalist would merely carried on altogether distinct from each other : pay the weaver, and the rest of the family might he did not see the connexion between those two employ themselves as they pleased for him. parts, as the women might continue to spin in He did not think that that alteration, and the the same house with the weaver, weaving cloth bringing families to live in towns, would necesfor another person. He thought the principle of sarily have the effect of depriving all the younger the division of labour would contribute more to branches of the family of those earnings which further the interests of the linen trade, by the they now obtained by carrying on the manuFearer not being a farmer, than if he joined factures in the country; the families of labourers the two businesses of weaving and farming. throughout the country, women and children, He did not think that one of the causes of the would still be employed in spinning and dresscheapness with which linen was produced in ing flas; while the labourer was employed Ireland was to be found in all the different parts for some large manufacturer, the women of the of the manufacturer's family taking a share house, and the children, would still be employed from the earliest period of life in some one in spinning and dressing flax. He should supprocess or other of the manufacture, from the pose, that if the weaver lived in a town, and time it exhibited itself in flax in the field, till had no farm, and passed his whole time altoit went out of the loom in the shape of the web; gether in the business of weaving, he would he thought it were better carried on separately. have more money in his pocket for the purposes He did not think the cheapness of it mainly of his family, than if he lived in the country, attributable to that mode of its being carried on. and paid a rent for land so high as to be obliged According to his plan of congregating manu- to pay a considerable part of his earnings facturers into villages, for the purpose of carry- towards that rent. He thought the manu. ing on the manufacture, it would require capital-facturer that employed that weaver, under those ists to employ them. It might be better for circumstances, would get the work done cheaper, their morals that the manufacture should be on the whole, than if the circumstances were carried on in the country rather than in the different from what had been described. In town; but the thing could be produced cheaper point of fact, the system he had described, the other way. He had no doubt that the of capitalists employing weavers living in vil.

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lages, and occupying their whole time in weav- it would be worse without the inspection. He ing, was, he had heard, the system that now did not think it would be possible for the prevailed in Scotland, though not entirely. buyer of yarn to secure, by his own exertions, There might be a description of persons in the making up of the yarn in any particular Scotland who were partly manufacturers and way that was desirable for his own purpose. partly farmers. He had had opportunities of The inconvenience to the Scotch buyers of yarn, knowing the manner in which the linen manu- or the English buyers of yarn, from there being facture was carried on in Scotland, by conversing no such officer in Scotland or in England, could with people there in the trade. The tendency not operate there to the same extent at all, beof the conversation had been to acquire a know- cause there it was either mill-spun yarn or foreign ledge of the manner in which it was carried yarn, which was according to some particular on there ; and he thought that, in a general count. There might be some spun in England way, he was acquainted with the manner in and Scotland ; but the principal quantity was which it was carried on. With respect to the either mill-spun or foreign yarn imported. He two methods of carrying on the manufacture, did not mean to say that the duty of the office the Irish and the Scotch, the Scotch had the of inspectors in Ireland was so accurately, superiority, he thought. He conceived that honestly, and ably discharged, as to secure the superiority to consist in the manufacture being object of the act of parliament, namely, that in the hands of large and experienced persons, every hank shall contain the exact number ready to make improvements, and to adopt them of threads prescribed, and shall be wound as soon as known. The large manufacturers exactly of the same length of which it ought to supplied the weavers with sorted yarn, wefts, be wound; the inspection had not gone the and warps. The weaver in Scotland was a length of making it so accurate as that. There person who merely received wages for his work, were constant complaints of the neglect of inand was in no degree connected with the buy-spectors. He did not know himself that there ing of the yarn or the selling of the cloth. were different rules prevailing in different parts It being a cheaper mode of production, he con- of Ireland, governing the conduct and the ceived that if Scotland persevered in its system, way of managing the business and duties of and Ireland persevered in her system, that inspectors; but if that were the case, it was in the end Scotland would gain considerable irregular ; they acted all under one law, and it advantages over the linen manufacture of Ire-should be enforced throughout the kingdom. land. He believed that there was some hand. As to whether the experience of any regulations spinning in Scotland ; but there was a great of this sort afforded any grounds for justifying deal of mill-spinning, and a great deal of foreign the opinion, that any system could be introduced yarn imported ; they got yarn from Ireland too. to enforce the regular discharge of the duties The principle of the Scotch manufacturer was of such officers ; he did not know how far they to obtain the material in the cheapest possible could be made to make the thing perfectly way. He did not care where he got it; he got accurate; he did not think it possible; but to it as cheap as he could. He had stated in a approach as near perfection as possible he thought former part of his evidence, that he conceived necessary. He conceived that the inspectors it necessary that the inspectors of yarn should were necessary, in order to prevent frauds on be continued, for yarns exposed in open market; the part of the makers and sellers of yarn. He the reason that induced him to think that that thought there was a disposition to commit frauds officer was necessary between the buyer of to that extent, on the part of the sellers of yarn and the seller of it, was that it was neces- yarn, as to justify the interference of a public sary that some one general rule and regulation, officer: even under the inspection there were with respect to the wind and count of yarn, irregularities; and, in his mind, there would be be enforced throughout the kingdom. If they still more if there were no inspection. From adopted the plan of selling by weight, he thought the frauds of that description of persons who that inspection would still be necessary, that commonly sold yarn in the markets, the weaver people should know the count and reel, and the might protect himself that had but little yarn length of thread. He did not think that its to buy, only as much as would make a web being sold by weight would do away the neces of cloth; but the yarn-dealer that came a great sity of having any reference to count and reel ; distance, and bought a quantity to take to if there was no law to enforce a certain reel and another market, it was very important to him count, it would vary very considerably, and that he purchased yarn in a state that he could the manufacturers would find a great difficulty sell it again, and without the trouble of count. in working up the yarn. He meant that that ing every hank. He conceived that the office difficulty would arise in working up the yarn of inspector protected the buyer, in point of into warps and wefts. The present system of fact, from frauds. The ground upon which he inspection made the accuracy of count and reel supposed this inspection to be necessary, was better than it would be without it, but the the quantity a buyer had to purchase in one yarn was still not accurate. It was not positively market; and from such a number of poor people, correct all through the kingdom ; but he thought whom he might never see again. When asked, ** Suppose the law was altered, and that that part | greater facility to the buyer to meet the people

of the law was repealed which requires all yarn there; and was much less expensive than going " to be sold in open market, and that the buyer round the country, and making contracts with * could buy in his house every day in the week, the sellers in their houses. When asked, “ if u or at any place he thought proper to go to look “ the buyer was a person who had a regular * for yaru, could he not, by affording the people“ demand for large quantities of yarn, and it “ who make yarn an opportunity of coming at " was known that all yarn brought to his office " their own time to him, be able to buy any“ at his residence would be purchased at a fair " quantity of yarn, in such a manner as to secure “ value, if it was made up in an honest man. “ honest yarn, and yarn made up as it ought to be “ ner, and according to the rules that are laid

in regard to reel and count?" his answer was, “ down, would he not be able to obtain any that he did not think it would be a practicable" quantity of yarn in the country he wished, plan. He did not conceive that the seller of “ without any trouble of going round and colo yarn had a right to complain of having his “ lecting it ?” his answer was, that he thought dealings placed under the control of a public the people would prefer going to market. As officer ; for if there was nothing wrong, the to linens, the generality of buyers had agents officer could not seize. When asked, “ if he did employed to purchase for them in the market * not conceive that it was a great hardship upon towns; but as to yarns, he thought not. When " any man who earned his bread by his own asked, “ if he meant that the people would * industry, to be compelled by act of parliament “ prefer going to market instead of going to " to bring his goods and place the value of them " a regular office, where there was regular " in any degree under the control of a public“ payment and fair dealing, to such a degree * officer ?” his answer was, that he thought it “ that such buyer would not be able to get the would be a hardship if that person was a re- “ quantity of yarn he wanted to purchase ?” his spectable person ; but if he were a pauper, that answer was, that if there was an office open at the buyer might never see again, he thought such a place, he dared say a great deal would be that the person might be made subject to the brought; but he thought the present taste of interference of a public officer. They were the people would be to go to market. If the obliged to go before a magistrate before yarn yarn were not subject to the inspection of a could be forfeited. He thought that the effect public officer, the purchasers would inspect it upon the minds of those who were connected themselves; they could inspect it as well as any with the trade, if the public officers were al- officer, if they had time to do it. It would be together removed, would be an apprehension of worth while for a buyer to a great extent to irregular yarn. He did not know that yarn have a person in his employ capable of ex. was obliged to be sold in open market ; if so, it amining yarn, in the way it is now examined was an injurious restriction. He was not aware by the public inspector ; but he knew of no that the law absolutely prohibited yarn from seller to that extent. He thought it was posbeing sold, except in open market, and between sible for the inspector to keep the market suftertain hours on each market day. It might ficiently regular. He was not of opinion that Be that all dealings with respect to the pur. those various regulations about the selling of chasing of yarn were not carried on altogether yarn in markets, and the power of inspectors to in a manner so as to be free from a certain seize, if the yarn was not made up in that understanding between the buyer and the of. method which the law required, operated to ficer ; but he had no knowledge of any private check the extension of the making of yarn understanding between the officer and the yarn throughout those parts of Ireland in which it buyer. He had never heard of an instance of a had not been yet introduced to any extent worth collusion of that kind taking place between the speaking of; there might be particular prepublic officer and the manufacturer, to his own judiced parts of the country where they would knowledge. If there was no officer, and the continue obstinately in old methods, and would purchaser was obliged to examine the yarn him not conform to those that were conceived ne. self, the buyer could not buy the same quantity cessary for the general advantage. If a farmer of yarn on a market day that he could do now; were disposed to grow flax, and to spin it into and that was one of the reasons why he thought yarn, in a district of country where the yarn there ought to be inspection. The yarn was spinning had not been introduced, he might be bought, in point of fact, in open market, from a in some degree intimidated and prevented from ritmber of small people. When asked, “ if he pursuing his inclination by reading the rules " had ever heard of yarn being seized in con- that were printed and circulated by the yarn * sepnence of a few threads being wanting in a inspectors; at the same time, the rules and " bank ?” he answered, that there was a small regulations were necessary for the general ad. number of threads, he believed, allowed; he vantage. He thought there was no regulation could not be accurate as to that. There were that any person of common intelligence could twelve cuts in a hank, each cut 120 threads, of not conform to at once; all they had to get was **0 yards and a half each. He thought the a reel of proper dimensions, to give it so many present system of coming to market gave a much turns, and when they came to a out to put a

thread round it. He knew the prejudices of the the duty upon dressed flax should be taken off, people so much, that he allowed it to be very and that all duties that could possibly be dis. difficult to get them to conform to rules of any pensed with upon bleaching materials should be kind; but it was necessary that some one rule be made as light as possible : owing to withdraw. established all over the country. He therefore ing the bounties, the trade would have very did not think the removal of the public officers hard work indeed ; and in some situations the would be an expedient measure. He had said duty upon coal was sufficient nearly to prevent that he thought the inspection of yarn was a bleach greens being erected; for instance, in necessary thing in open market; he considered the neighbourhood of Dublin the duty was it a very great hardship indeed for either halls excessive. The effect of that duty upon coals or warehouses, or mill-spinners, where there in Dublin, and of some regulations of the Irish were responsible people, to be subject to the laws, was to require brown linens that were visit of an inspector. He knew nothing about brought from the west and south of Ireland to the woollen trade. The woollen trade was very be sent down to the north to be bleached, and unimportant, in point of magnitude, as compared afterwards frequently to be brought back to with the linen trade of Ireland; although he Dublin for sale. The house he was concerned believed there was a great extent of spinning of in did a great deal in that way, getting linens wool throughout the southern parts of Ireland. from Cork and from Mayo, and all that part of The bounties upon coarse linen had created a Ireland, and sending them down to the north, system, in which he thought it would cause an and getting them back bleached. To the reunwarrantable convulsion to take it off sud- mark, “ if the duties on coals were removed, denly; but he did not approve of the system of the prohibition that existed against bleach bounties; he thought it had brought the trade “ yards being established in the neighbour. into a precarious state. The bounties upon “ hood of Dublin being removed, those linens coarse linens must have increased the growth of " would be all bleached in Dublin, by which flax, and the consequent manufacture of coarse “ the expense of sending them to the north linens in the south of Ireland, certainly, for “ would be saved;" he replied, that he did not most of them were exported. He did not remem. think they would get it done cheaper; he ber when the bounties were first granted. He thought it would be worth while to carry them did not think that the improvement that had to a greater distance, to a part of the country taken place in the trade was altogether owing where there were greater falls of water for to the bounties ; for he thought himself the mills, and where there was turf. The bleach. bounties had militated against Ireland in one ing could not be carried on as cheaply in the respect, namely, in the great encouragement neighbourhood of Dublin as in the north, if the that the English and Scotch manufacturer had duty on coals was taken off ; he knew of no falls had in manufacturing cloths exactly to get the in the neighbourhood of Dublin, and if steam bounty. The bounty was taken upon Scotch was used it would come much higher. The and English linens as well as upon Irish. trade were very much against the proposed There was nearly three times as much bounty alteration of the duties on ashes; through the drawn for English and Scotch linens as for withdrawing of the bounties, and the various Irish. Upon the whole, it was his opinion that circumstances that were pressing on the trade, the practical operation of the bounties had been it was very doubtful whether the trade would against Ireland, and in favour of Scotland and increase under them all; there were consider. England. As to whether, as far as the interest able duties on bleaching materials, on smalts, of the linen manufacture of Ireland was con- and on ashes, and on sulphur used in making cerned, it would be of advantage to get rid of vitriol; all of which came to a great deal on a the bounties ; it was a different thing not to year's bleaching. If, on the one hand, those put on a bounty and to take one off ; after the duties were taken off, and, upon the other, the system had been carried on for such a number bounties were repealed, the linen manufacture of years, when the bounty had raised the price would be benefited by such an arrangernent; of land and every thing else, the withdrawing because the one might be permanent, and the of the bounty must be felt on the trade severely. bounties must be withdrawn in the course of Ile did not think that the withdrawment of the nine years. If the operation of having no duty bounty conld be effected more quickly, without upon bleaching stuff or coals could be obtained inconvenience to the trade, than was arranged for the withdrawing the bounty, that must be last year by the new regulation ; ten years was withdrawn in nine years, he conceived that a long time, but he thought it was right to do it would be an advantage. He certainly felt it gradually. When asked, “ if he could suggest absolutely necessary that the Irish manufacturer * any measure that would be of service to the should be placed upon an equal footing with the * linen manufacture of Ireland, with regard English manufacturer, with respect to the raw * to the existing duties upon the materials materials, yarn, dressed flax, and every thing, ** made use of in that manufacture, coals and No injury would arise to the trade from such a * other articles ?” his answer was, that he proceeding. certainly thought, with respect to duties, that Jouy MARSHALL, Esq. examined. Lired at Headingly, near Leeds. Was a spinner of though it was finer than that which would draw flas. The raw material that they consumed the bounty if exported. The Yorkshire and was about two thousand tons a year. It was all Scotch weavers would give a higher price for mill-spun. His mills were at Leeds and Shrews. their yarns by ten or fifteen per cent than for bury. He had been engaged in that business the hand-spun yarn. Continued improvements since the year 1790 ; – thirty-five years. The were taking place in the mill machinery for practice of mill-spinning flax had improved very spinning linen yarn ; and it was now very much much indeed in that period. He was one of improved from what it was thirty years ago, or the first that began the spinning of flax by ten years ago; at which time they did not spin machinery, perhaps the first that brought it to more than fifteen cuts to the pound; but now any perfection. They were still making very from thirty to fifty. He thought it was promaterial improvements in the manner of spin- bable that, in the next thirty years, machinery ning. As to the fineness of the yarn they spun, would be just as much improved as it had been what they were now spinning averaged about within the last ; he thought it would continue thirty cuts in the pound. It was fit for fine improving; they had always improvements in sheetings and drills, and shirting cloths, and hand. They employed about one thousand six some of their damasks. The raw material was hundred hands in the whole process of dressing obtained principally from Flanders, France, and flax; in the different processes in the mill-spinHolland, and some from Ireland. The bulk of ning, about nine hundred, or one thousand. the yarn was sold in Yorkshire ; some in Scot. They had four different mills; all worked by land, and some in the north of Ireland. The steam; about three hundred horse power. foreign flax that they made use of was all | There were several mills similar to theirs at dressed by machinery. They got it in a rough Leeds; perhaps eight or ten; and one at state, and dressed it themselves. They should Shrewsbury. None of them were half as large prefer that mode of proceeding, in place of im- as theirs. There were a great many on the porting dressed flax, supposing the duties were eastern coast of Scotland ; Mr. Maberly's was taken off, for they dressed it much better than the most extensive ; but at present the weaving it was done abroad. He meant that they of linen yarn was not carried on by machinery dressed it in their own house better; and he be- to any extent ; Mr. Maberly was now building lieved it was dressed much better by the English a large mill for weaving linen yarn. The exmanufacturers in general as well as by them. periment had been made in England of weaving The flax they got from Ireland was, in point of by machinery. They had themselves wove by goodness, scarcely equal to the average of Flan- machinery; they had now given it up, and conders flax. Which generally came cheapest defined themselves to spinning. They gave it up pended entirely upon the season ; sometimes because they wished to have only one thing to they were buying almost entirely in one mar- attend to-they thought the spinning was sufket, and sometimes in another. On the average, ficient. He had no doubt that it was likely to be the Flanders flax had been the cheapest for the successful in making a good and saleable manulast three or four years. The flax was better facture; but it had not yet succeeded to any dressed in England considerably than it was in great extent; not to any great saving of labour Ireland. They never got any dressed from or expense. It was not in consequence of its Ireland; he had seen it in Ireland dressed; it not succeeding to their expectations that they would not answer the purposes of their mills; abandoned it; they adopted it merely as an ex. they could not spin it in the way it was dressed; periment, for the sake of introducing it to the it was so badly dressed. They therefore bought manufacturers that bought their yarns; they it in a rough state, and dressed it themselves. adopted it on a very small scale, for the sake of He could not exactly say, when linen yarn was experiment, not with the intention of going into spun to thirty cuts to the pound of shirting, it largely themselves. He believed that it was what price by the yard that would produce. likely to be adopted as a mode of weaving linen They were merely spinners; they manufactured yarn, in preference to the common loom, in the nothing. It would not answer for that degree course of ten or twenty years, but not much of fineness of web that he himself was in the sooner ; for it was not, in its present state, very habit of making use of for shirts. The finest profitable, although susceptible of great improve. they spun was fifty cuts, which was about the ment. One reason for his saying, although it coarser quality of damasks that were made use had not been successful with them upon the ex. of. He did not know what the average quality periments which they had made, that it was of damask would sell for by the yard; and there likely, in the course of twenty years, to be gene. fore could not give the Committee any accurate rally adopted, was, that Mr. Maberly was now account of the price of the cloth that the finest I adopting it on a large scale ; and from their own of his yarn might be manufactured into. The experience, if they had been manufacturers of yarn he spun would answer only for about the linens, they should have adopted it themselves middle quality of Irish shirtings. He did not on a large scale. Mr. Maberly had ascertained think that much of the linen cloth that his yarn by experiment that it would answer, and he was might be manufactured into was exported ; al. now in progress of going to a large extent in

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