tossed, and it was very subject to wet; and if of individuals to determine it themselves; but, he imported a cargo, it must be weighed to as he had already stated, the peculiar circumascertain that trifling duty, which was a great stances of the hand-spinner required some regu. inconvenience, and often, on open quays, was lation; and when he considered the capabilities attended with loss. He did not know to what of the south and west of Ireland, he believed the the duty amounted in a year. As to the ques-growth of flax and saving the seed might be tion whether, supposing some capitalists to advantageously encouraged. They did not employ a number of spinners to make yarn, he weave by machinery; he did not know any way did not think that it would ultimately lead to a as yet that linen yarn could be wove by mamore improved system of machinery and wheels chinery to advantage. They had weavers living amongst those people, than if they went on upon in the country about; they gave them out a their present system, he did not know how the certain quantity of yarn as warp, and so many common wheel was to be improved; it had been hanks for weft, and paid them for weaving tried very much in Ireland; the system was when they brought in the web. The wages totally different from that of machinery. As far that a good weaver made by the week must as he could see of flax machinery, there must vary very much, for they all worked by the be some very great improvements before it could piece. Supposing a diligent weaver to be at ever be adopted for spinning fine yarn. Even constant work, and to work constantly, he supposing that were the case, the machinery might earn 12s. or 14s. a week. They paid in would go on, because if it were prohibited in proportion to the fineness of the seed. ManIreland, it would be used in England and Scot-chester was the chief market for the cloth they land; and, therefore, it might as well be used wove, but they sent it to a great number of in Ireland. He thought that in Leeds the places; they exported some. He thought that spinning was as high as four or five hanks, but the principal part of what was manufactured by that was used for particular purposes; he them was sold for home consumption. They thought they (in Ireland) might spin two and wove their cloth in the neighbourhood of Lucan; three hank yarn. They spun by hand as far as paying by the piece. The weavers lived round thirty-five, and even to sixty hanks. Fine the mill in the neighbourhood. They employed foreign yarn was all made by hand; but the flax about one hundred and fifty, or one hundred and spun by machinery to make about two hank and sixty, in pretty constant work. The men they a half, and three hank yarn, the hand would employed were not farmers as well as weavers; spin to eight or nine hank. Two and three they were exclusively weavers. He thought hank yarn was the highest they spun to. they were able to live in comfortable circumTwice as fine as that could be spun by some of stances; it depended greatly upon the man the mill-machines in Ireland. He did not know himself, whether he was provident or not. if the machines in England spun nearly as fine They lived about the village; for some of them as they wove. He had very little experience in they had built tenements; for which they paid the foreign fine yarn. He thought some of the rent. They (the masters) never interfered Flanders flax was better than the Irish, but with their time; they got out a piece to weave. there was remarkably good flax in Ireland. The weavers did not follow any other profes. The machinery they now made use of was not sion. Occasionally, on Saturdays, they had a the same that they first set going; they were meat market there. He thought they were erecting a third set now; they destroyed the clothed well; they were evidently improved in first set, and then got an improved set; and their clothing. Almost all their families being now they were destroying the second set. There in the neighbourhood of the mill, any man that was no question whatever that it would require had decent children they had employment in the six or eight times the number of people to do mill. He had gone through the north of Ireby hand the same work that they did. In land. He thought the habits of the people in point of fact, the linen trade was not carried the north were much more provident than with on at all there before they established it. them. He thought the northern weaver lived It was much easier to weave mill-spun yarn as well, ate as good food. He had made it a rule than hand-spun. The difference between mill- never to interfere further than ascertaining that spinning and hand-spinning was, that when the weavers were paid a fair relative value of they gave any thing to be spun by a machine, wages, and that immediately on delivering their they were forced to have the flax very good; work. He had no experience in buying hand. but in spinning by the hand, as the spinner was spun yarn, and giving it out to weavers; but he merely using the fibre with the most sensitive understood that in the north the process was part of the body, the fingers, he might use quite different; that frequently a farmer or inferior flax for the same size of yarn, for he did weaver sent his wife to market to buy a pound not unnecessarily distress the thread. He deci- or two of flax, which they spun: and they dedly thought that it would be very impolitic in might be a long time in weaving that, or a the Legislature to offer any encouragement or short time, according to what other engagediscouragement to spinning by hand or by mills; ments they had. The trade did not at all exist and that it was better to leave it to the interest | in his neighbourhood before he set up his ma chinery; it was merely having the water-power tage to the linen manufacturers, or to the poorer that induced him to commence it. He doubted class of people in Ireland, must depend on the very much if he had his money out of the manu- system introduced. It would be very hard to facture whether he would put it in again; it state what capital would be requisite to the was quite a different story putting money in establishment of spinning machinery, to the and taking it out, or even limiting the extent extent that his machinery was employed to: it of an established manufacture. They could not would be a very large capital. He had been by machinery make as cheap yarn as they did bringing his up by degrees to its present extent by hand, therefore it was entirely matter of and capability of working; but supposing an quality; they made better goods. He did not establishment of mill-spinning, capable of doing know what quantity of goods could be sold, or as much work within the year as his, was what quantity the market would take. In the required, he did not think that any man could process of spinning by machinery they must set it to work and carry it on under 40,000l. to have every fibre in a straight line; when a 50,0007. His machinery was all worked by woman came to spin by hand, she did not care water. He thought that, comparing it with whether she had it crooked or not, provided she horse-power, they were working about fifty could put together as many crooked fibres as horse-power. He had no doubt that all the would make up the size of the thread she was finer descriptions of the linen manufacture in going to spin; but if he were, in spinning by Ireland were quite incapable of being carried on machinery, to produce in any part a crooked by machinery. He could not say what proporfibre, it would end in a knot, or lump, to avoid tion the produce of fine manufacture bore to the which he was forced to hackle the flax a great coarse; in point of value it bore an immense deal finer for the same size of yarn than was proportion, but in point of weight it did not. necessary for spinning by hand. He was quite He knew where the different mill-spinning aware that one of the greatest advantages in a machineries in England were, but he had not manufactory was the minute subdivision of seen many of them; they were very tenacious labour. He thought that by the subdivision of of shewing them. He had never heard of any labour a very great saving must be made. There exertions made by the larger capitalists, engaged must be a subdivision in a manufactory. In in the mill-spinning machinery, to put down Ireland a woman would spin when she would those who had started upon smaller scales. otherwise be unemployed; but it would be a They bleached all their yarn. It did not lose very difficult thing to pay her for that time, and nearly so much in weight after it was bleached for that very reason they could not be employed as the hand-spun. He understood that the in manufactories spinning by hand, because now process that the Irish weaver adopted now, was they were content to sit up in the evening that of going to market and selling his web, and without a light to spin, and charge little or purchasing yarn there to make a fresh web. nothing for it. Speaking with reference to his The weaver would certainly save a great deal of own experience, he did not think it a profitable time if, instead of being obliged to adopt that manufacture, as compared to other modes of process, a respectable individual, possessed of laying out money. Undoubtedly, the cotton some capital, were to employ a great number in manufacture had been brought to perfection by his neighbourhood of the weavers to make machinery, by the subdivision of labour in dif- cloth, and then for that individual to send it to ferent parts of the manufacture of cotton goods; the market, and to dispose of it without the but he thought the two manufactures were weaver being obliged to go to the market at all; quite different: the hand, as compared with but he had always understood that the parties machinery, could not touch the cotton; the carrying on the trade in Ireland had other hand, in fine yarn, could beat the mill-spun avocations, and that they merely filled up a yarn, which was a material difference. Cotton proportion of their time with manufacturing. could be spun by hand, but not in any compa- He did not think that by any arrangement of rison with machinery. It was formerly spun the kind, which had been alluded to, they would by hand; but he believed not now. He believed have linen cheaper. As far as he had ever unthat the women in Ireland, if they occupied derstood, with reference to the north of Ireland, themselves in spinning cotton wool, would get the mode adopted there was the very best posa great deal more for the cotton before they sible for cheapness. When asked,— Suppose spun it than afterwards. He thought that the “a change to take place in the state of things subdivision of labour in the linen manufacture" of this kind; that, for instance, an indiwas carried on to as much advantage in the "vidual possessed of a certain capital, say Country cabins in Ireland, as it could be if the "4,000l. or 5,000l., laid out a great portion of manufacturers were collected into large towns; "that in the purchase of flax, and gave it out some very great alteration must be made in the" to weavers, paying the weavers a certain Laode of spinning by machinery before hand-" sum for manufacturing the linen, the weaver spinning could be put down. Whether, if the" being in no degree responsible either for the present mode were put down, and another sub-" price of the flax, or the money that the linen stituted in its place, it would be of any advan-" was to bring him afterwards; would not that H 66 "be a better state of things than the present ?" | he went to another. He had his web ready his answer was, that he did not think the manu-marked with the brown seal, without any delay facture would be carried on so cheap. He did not or question as to its being properly made: if think it at all applicable to the present state of the brown seal were abolished, the purchaser a great part of Ireland; it might be done in would have to ascertain where the seller lived, some parts. He did not know in what manner and to examine the piece before he paid for it, the inspectors of yarn discharged their duty in and thus much time would be lost. He was the west and south of Ireland; the inspectors sure that the seller of linen got a better price in had a right to inspect their (the witness's) yarn, consequence of selling his linen in a market, but they did not do it. They did not make an than he could do if it was left free from all examination of it; he believed they had a right legislative restraint; but he believed there was to do so; they certainly would inconvenience no law to prevent him selling in his cabin, if he their trade if they did do it. He believed the pleased, provided it was marked. He conceived law gave the Board a power, and their officer a that selling it by private contract, in the way power, of searching premises where they sus- alluded to, would take away from the weaver pected yarn to be. He thought the trade, as it quick information as to any rise of price. If the was carried on in the north, would be injured prices rose in England, the purchaser, by his by a total repeal of the linen laws. He thought eagerness to buy, discovered the advance, which that, with reference to the brown seal (he was soon ascertained by the weavers. Wheat ought, perhaps, to say, that he never bought a was generally sold in a public market. The piece of linen in his life), the Linen Board had only market for wheat with which he was a right to seal the linen with a brown seal, for much acquainted was the Dublin market; and which the seal-master got a penny for every he believed the only law regulating the transtwenty-five yards; he had a right to ascertain action between buyer and seller, referred to fraud that the weaver had his name marked on the in the sack. If any part of the sack of corn was piece, and to measure it. This was done pre-not of equal quality, the fraud came under a vious to the market, which it facilitated; but if that were not the case, how could a person buy three or four hundred pieces of linen within a short space of time? The breadth and length being certified by the Linen Board inspector, if there was a fraud committed, the purchaser went to the inspector who had marked it, and he was responsible. The penalties were certainly too high, because in every instance there was confiscation of property, which might be ruin to a poor man. If, by placing a responsibility of character upon the individual exposing that web in the market, he could effect the object of securing to the public the absence of fraud, he should be very happy. He thought that selling linen in open market was the best way that linen could be sold. When asked, "Sup-it, making it even all through; that he should 66 pose the law was altered, and that in place of "forcing seven thousand or eight thousand "pieces of linen to one market, the bleacher 66 was able to buy every day in the week at his 66 own residence, and that the person making "the linen had an opportunity of taking the "linen to his residence, might not such a 66 system of buying and selling linen be intro“duced, as that there would be a responsibility "of character upon the individual weaver ?"— he answered, that he doubted the possibility of depending on the responsibility of the weaver's character; and if that was not established, the purchaser would only pay a price for the piece of linen sufficient to cover the risk of its being unmerchantable. He thought there was no way so fair to both parties as the public market. In all public markets that he had seen, there were twenty or thirty purchasers, and the seller was not forced to go to any one in particular: if he did not like the price which one offered, particular act of parliament. There was not any inspecting officer. The law, therefore, was in the nature of a remedy when fraud was committed, or intended to be committed. He did not think that if the law was repealed that at present required linen to be sealed, and the bleacher was at liberty to purchase linen wherever he pleased, that he would have any difficulty in obtaining any quantity he thought proper to purchase; but he thought it would be placing the weaver at the mercy of the buyer. The piece of cloth that was subject to the inspection of the seal-master, was placed under his judgment only as far as regarded the weaving; the law only said, that in whatever way the weaver had begun his piece he should finish use in the entire the same kind of yarn for west, and that he should not commit any kind of fraud. The weaver had an appeal to the magistrate. He did not think the right that the weaver possessed, to sell his cloth in any way he thought proper, materially interfered with, by placing him under the necessity of having that cloth brought before a seal-master. If he went to a weaver who had his piece of linen for sale, he must at some time ascertain that it was properly wove, as well as its length and breadth; and, in ascertaining those points, he must do what an intermediate, uninterested person, the seal-master, did for him; and must, by whomsoever it was done, cost something. He did not think that course of proceeding, of ascertaining the length of the cloth, could be as effectually done by a voluntary arrangement between the parties; because it was now all done before the market; therefore the weaver and the purchaser lost no time. The butter : He con ceived that was the natural and safe way of increasing manufactures. There was one thing trade was also under regulation. The market | fitable, would increase; those establishments for the sale of webs of cloth generally occupied, would branch out into larger ones. from its commencement to its close, only a short space of time; but it would require an entire day, if the measure and quality were to be very much against any new establishment being settled at the same time. The weavers that made in Ireland, arising from the extreme attended those markets came from a distance of difficulty of getting machinery. Flax-spinning many miles and there was another advantage machinery was four or five times as expensive arising from the use of the brown seal;-the web as cotton, and it required four or five times the having been inspected, a weaver might send any power. There was no expense in procuring person he pleased to sell it; but if it were not linen yarn spinning machinery from England, inspected, he must go with it himself; for it other than the mere bringing it from England would be quite unfair that the buyer should to Ireland; but the machine-makers were so examine it when no competent judge was pre- much employed in England, that they could not sent. The weaver could not be at the mercy of immediately execute orders: he had orders the measurer. He believed that brown seals lying in England for these ten months past. were sometimes given to respectable manu- He begged leave to observe to the Committee, facturers, if they required them. He had never that he understood the legislature were going heard of any complaint against the present to allow the export of machinery at the very system of brown seals, but that the penalties time that the home demand could not be were too severe; none, he believed, as to the supplied; consequently nothing would be exexercise of power. He did not think there ported but a machine to copy from. It was, he would be any necessity for brown seals if the conceived, telling the foreigner, "We cannot trade were all carried on in large establishments," supply you, but there is the machine to copy but he did not think that practicable; they" from; and now go you and set up a manumight be able to weave a piece of linen as fine" factory to make it yourself." There was one by machinery as was done by hand, but it would regulation with regard to the linen laws which be at an enormous expense; improvements he thought should be abolished; that was, promight take place in the machinery. The regu-hibiting the bleaching by lime. The bleacher lations respecting yarn were good; but it was could not by law use lime, and yet in coarse a more difficult subject to know how far they goods it was universally used. He could not see were advantageous, if the law was not or could any necessity for legislative enactments to regunot be enforced. He doubted whether it could late the mode of bleaching. The law might be strictly enforced. He did not think any prohibit the use of an article which, by improveregulations necessary with respect to the esta- ment and chemical combination, had almost blishment of mills for the spinning of linen yarn become necessary to the bleacher. There were in Ireland, so as to supply the coarse trade with also very great doubts entertained of the expethe quantity necessary for the carrying on their diency of branding flax-seed. He was quite manufacture. He was sure those mills were convinced that in one case it was not necesincreasing. He thought that, after a person sary; that was to say, when it came in bulk had obtained a knowledge of the manufacture, for crushing. As to whether, if that which was he might have a fair remuneration on the brought in bulk for crushing was permitted capital so employed; but he doubted very much to go into store without examination, for that whether, were he ignorant of the manufacture, purpose only, that seed which was imported as he would direct his attention to it in preference. sound, and intended for sowing, ought still to He was convinced there were other lines of undergo examination; he thought it would be manufacture that were much more profitable. quite sufficient if the importer was only required It was very hard to look back, and say what he to brand the package with the date of the year might do under certain circumstances; but the imported; and that it was illegal to alter that money he had expended in the linen manufac-brand, or sell for sowing but in the original ture would have been employed more profitably package; and to give a certificate, with the date if he had put it into other manufactures. Al- of the import, and the place from whence imthough he thought the remuneration for the capital employed in the manner he had employed it, was a fair one, the cost of machinery, and the necessary alterations and improvements, added to the risk, and reduced the profits. He did not think the linen manufacture as lucrative as others; he thought there was a wide field of other manufactures that were more lucrative, and he would rather, being ignorant of manufactures, take up cotton. The introduction of machinery into Ireland would go on progressively, and all existing establishments, if pro ported. The greatest proportion of the flax. seed brought into Ireland for sowing this year had certainly been imported under a monopoly. He could only state what he had heard. A company, or some persons, bought up all the flax-seed that was in America; they bought up as much as they could get in Liverpool, and other places; they then imported the whole of it, and, as he understood and believed, they retained a part of it in America, declaring that they would sell it in America in the month of May; of course, it could not then be available for sowing in Ireland. The result of the whole country would in time be produced. Home think they did alter them. As to the necessity, if the regulations were never altered (supposing the officers to exist), for communication with the Board, there were various matters and particular cases to decide upon; there might be persons that were not doing their duty, or inspectors to remove and appoint. When asked, "if those matters could not be as well carried was, that, with an ample supply of flax-seed, he flax-seed was not subject to any inspection supposed the country would pay four guineas to whatever. He was not at all acquainted with 47. 15s., instead of paying 31. 5s., which was the the mode in which linen inspectors were apprice last year. When asked, "whether, if this pointed. He just knew the general construc 46 same company that had bought up all the flax- tion of the Linen Board. The members of "seed that could be obtained in America, and that Board were generally noblemen and “imported it into Ireland this season, had country gentlemen. When asked, “if he "found it their interest to send an inferior" thought that the Linen Board was very "quality of seed, a regulation for the examin-" advantageous to the trade?" he answered, "ation of that seed upon import would not that he thought a power must be lodged some"have been calculated to secure the purchaser where. It would be very hard to form a Board "against a bad article?" he answered, that in any better way, because the members were the regulation would have prevented the all interested for the good of the country. He sowing; the seed would not have been branded ; | reckoned that the power must be vested in and, of course, there would not have been any some persons; there must be some set of of sowing seed, except English or Irish, for sale. ficers; there must be some persons to carry on Branding would only have made the seller not correspondence for the general arrangement of liable to the law. He believed the law stood the trade; they must vest a power somewhere. thus: If he sold a hogshead of flax-seed which When asked, “if, for instance, the different was not branded, and did not give a certificate" laws respecting brown seal masters, and the of the growth and date of import, and that the" various other laws to which he had alluded, seed did not produce a crop, the persons sowing" should be considered necessary for the prothe seed could come upon him for damages. He "sperity of the trade, could not that matter thought no man in his senses, importing flax-" be carried on as well by general constant seed to Ireland, would intentionally import bad" regulations existing, as by a constant comseed. He conceived that it would be only done" munication with the Board frequently alterfrom accident, or, perhaps, from some particular" ing them ?" he answered, that he did not ignorance on the part of the importing merchant, or from its happening to be such an unfavourable year that he could not get good seed. In the event of the merchant importing bad seed, he thought an individual who had been in the habit all his life of sowing seed, would be as good a judge of it as the inspector. No regulation existed for securing the farmer from fraud relative to seed corn. He thought an individual" on by the government of the country, withselling seed corn might have an equal advan-" out the interference at all of a Board, contage and benefit in selling bad seed corn, as an "stituted of a number of landed proprietors ?" importing merchant of flax-seed might have in he answered, that the executive would, he importing bad flax-seed. In either of those thought, make another Board, and he was clear cases there was a similar principle to prevent that it could only be done by persons that were fraud taking place, which was the interest and disinterested; the trustees got some little trifle character of the individual selling. He had al- of wheels and implements, but they were not ready, however, stated that he conceived some interested in any other way, except in the regulation necessary; and the cost of branding welfare of the trade. Under the existing cir. was not much, being only 3d. the package. As a cumstances of the country, he thought that general proposition, he certainly conceived that necessary, and that the Linen Board was as well the more every trade was left to be carried on constituted as such a Board could be; there must by the intelligence and interest of those engaged be a Board; he thought it would be an adin it, the better. As far as he had seen, he vantage if they could make the same members thought the purchaser depended on the brand, as attend constantly. At the meetings of the far as related to the place imported from, and the Board, if there was any particular measure to date; but if he went upon the quay, where there be taken up, requiring continued discussion, were a number of casks lying, he never would be there was rarely, he believed, the same set of content to purchase till he had taken samples of members constantly in attendance. Suppose a them, exercising his own judgment as to the qua- law was to pass by which all existing laws lity. He could not therefore see any very great relating to linen in Ireland should be repealed utility in the present system of branding, ex- at the expiration of two years, he did not cept as far as he had stated. He had seen some imagine that Ireland would lose the linen maof the home flax-seed. He had no doubt what-nufacture. What he thought would happen ever, but if proper arrangements were made, with regard to the method in which yarn would and premiums given in the south of Ireland, be bought and sold, and linen would be bought a sufficiency of flax-seed for the supply of the and sold, and the business generally carried on, |