judge, and they live entirely at the expense of the judge, and during the time they are travelling backwards and forwards.

What is the practice with regard to allowing fees to counsel ?—I cannot at all say what the practice is; I believe, in general, the fees to counsel are left entirely to the discretion of the

officer.

Mr. Baron HULLOCK.-Sometimes a question arises, when the prosecution is for a serious of fence, as for murder, and there are two counsel employed, whether they shall both be allowed their fees; and the officer never has, in the circuit I have been lately, allowed fees to both counsel, without applying to the judge, and I certainly have occasionally sanctioned such allowance. I have thought one counsel in such and similar cases was not enough.

circuit, three or four days at least; I am sure, that at Warwick a day or two would be saved by that course of proceeding.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-I am perfectly satisfied that a day or two is wasted by that; I should think that the allowance to the counsel might be regulated according as they made an opening speech or not.

That is, you would allow the less if they made an opening speech ?-If the party who em ployed them chose they should make an opening speech, he should be at the expense of it; that is the impression on my mind. I have endeavoured for some time, but without much effect, to introduce elsewhere the practice which prevails on the midland circuit; I have succeeded in some degree on the northern circuit.

Can you account for the origin of the following fees differing on different circuits; circuit fees on an acquittal on the western, 11. 6s. &d.; on the home, 8s. 4d. ; on the northern, 10s. &d.? I cannot at all account for the origin of it. And when no bill is found, on the western it is 13s. 4d.; on the home, 6s. 4d.; and on the northern, nothing?—I cannot account for that. What would be the effect if the courts of quarter sessions could order payment to be made for charges incurred in the apprehension of offenders charged with felony, in cases in which the persons so charged are not committed for trial?—The judges have nothing to do with those charges; they never make an order for the charges of apprehension, except in cases in which there formerly were rewards, and then those charges fell upon government; whether the magistrates have a power to order those charges, I am incompetent to answer.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-There is a practice on the midland circuit which seems to me to be a very beneficial one, and I believe I was instrumental in having counsel there in almost every case, which was a remarkable saving in point of fatigue to the judge: I believe counsel are now employed in almost every case, and the allowance there, I think, is limited to two guineas if it is a capital case, and one guinea if it is a simple larceny, to a single counsel; and I think there was a rule introduced, when I was in the habit of going that circuit, that the attorney had for his attendance two guineas, and no more. The consequence of that was, if an attorney had a great deal of business, he was willing to take it on those terms; but, generally speaking, that devolved on the clerks of the magistrates who had occasion to attend there. They have also a practice on that circuit which, as it seems to me, is exceedingly beneficial with reference to counsel who conduct prosecutions; they are not in the habit of making any opening speech to the jury before the witnesses are examined, but they begin at once to examine the witnesses, and then if they examine them neatly, and only to what is really material, it is a great saving in point of time. It is advantageous also, I think, in point of effect, in this respect :—when the counsel for the prosecution opens the case, and makes a short statement of the facts, it has the appearance of hardship on a prisoner, when he | is called on for his defence, and he says, "I "leave it to my counsel," that he should be told, your counsel cannot be heard. To bystanders it certainly has this appearance, and it-I should rather apprehend he would endeavour naturally occurs to say, "here is a hardship; a to do his duty by the public as well as by the "prosecutor's counsel may be heard, a pri- county. "soner's counsel cannot."

The committee are speaking of a person who is not committed for trial?-If he is committed for trial we have no discretion, in common cases, as to the costs of apprehension; we allow the costs of apprehension in those cases in which there formerly were rewards, but we have no power to award them in any other case.

Pray who taxes the bill, the allowance for the expenses, the bill of costs, the allowance for the expenses at the assizes ?—I believe the clerk of the assize, or some officer under him.

Would his taxation be less efficient supposing that the expenses of the prosecution at the as sizes were charged on the country generally, than it is now, when it is charged on the county rate?

Did your lordship ever hear of any inconMr. Baron HULLOCK.-In capital cases, and venience arising from the mode that is adopted in cases where the facts are complicated, it is with reference to the absence of an opening absolutely necessary that there should be a state-speech in an ordinary case of felony, on the midment of the facts; but with these exceptions, land circuit ?-Never. the examination should be gone into at once, without any observation at all, which would save, I am quite satisfied, in the course of the

Examination of Mr. Baron Hr11OCK Ontinued.--Do you consider it to be legal to commit a prisoner for trial at the sessions, supposing the

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increased in this way, because, when there is only one judge, he must necessarily dispose of the civil business himself. The last time I was at Warwick there were about one hundred and sixty prisoners, and not a very heavy cause paper: I tried causes the first day, and I went on with the causes until I had finished the cause

those three days or three days and a half, or whatever period of time was occupied in the civil business, would have been occupied in the gaol delivery by the other judge; but that could not be done then by any other person, because the gentleman who is so good as to assist the judge could not do so then, he being employed in the civil business. I think the gaol might have been delivered in six or seven days.

The prosecutions in Warwick chiefly come from the town of Birmingham, I believe?They do.

And the constables who are there are witnesses, perhaps, in eight or ten different prosecutions; are they allowed their expenses in each ?—I really do not know that; I know what they ought to be allowed.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-In Lancashire, coming from Liverpool and other places, they do not allow them in all; they allow them in some, but not in all.

assizes to intervene between the committal and the time of holding the sessions? There is nothing at all illegal, as I conceive, in it. There has been a question made when the prisoner has been committed to gaol, (although he was com mitted for the sessions,) whether he ought not to be tried at the gaol delivery? I certainly should leave such person on his former commit-list: if there had been another judge, of course ment, provided he was committed to the sessions, and the witnesses were bound over to attend at the sessions. I think one thing might be done with considerable advantage, which would save a day or a day and a half:-if both the judges were to try prisoners on the first day of the assize, it would be no inconvenience to the civil suitors, inasmuch as the suitors who had causes to try at the assizes need not come to the assize town until the night of that day, and the counsel would thereby suffer no inconvenience, because their briefs would be delivered in time for them to have an opportunity of being prepared by the next morning to go through the business, without the delay which very often takes place the first day merely because gentlemen are not prepared. And there is another circumstance, also; if the gentlemen of the grand jury would attend a little earlier the first morning, they might make the first day efficient, which is at present nearly lost. It might be attended with inconvenience to many of them who reside at a distance, and who come from their residences in the morning to the assizes, but if they were to assemble at nine o'clock on the first day, and receive the charge, and the two judges were immediately to commence the trials of the criminals, it would make the first day efficient, and there would then be a saving of a day or a day and a half; and that might be done without any inconvenience whatever resulting to the civil suitors of the Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-I will venture to sugcounty. With respect to the mode of preferring gest this; if any check could properly be made the bills, I doubt exceedingly whether the prac-in cases of commitments, there are many cases tice which prevails, either in Yorkshire or Lan- in which the offences are so very trivial, that if cashire, is efficient for the purpose that has been the necessity of committing did not in all cases suggested, because the parties do not ascertain exist, I think it might be sometimes beneficial. precisely, from the advertisement that is put into I think it would not be amiss if the magistrate the papers, when they are to be there; but if at the time of the commitment could intimate the clerk of the assize was to put into the papers whether, in his judgment, it was a case in which that a certain number of cases (specifying them) the expense ought to fall on the county or not; would be brought before the grand jury on the whether that is practicable or not, I do not know. Monday, and a certain number on the Tuesday, I have seen a prosecution by a man of opulence and so on, that would be a saving of a great ex- against a person for stealing a spade; I am sure pense, because those who came on the Wednes- that within this last year I have tried at Durham day would save the expense of the two first days. three or four cases in which property of very Whereas now, in point of fact, in some places, small value was stolen from persons to whom the people all come on the first day, hundreds of the loss of the property was of no importance. them unnecessarily, because by no possibility can Does your lordship think that would be oball the bills be carried before the grand jury un-viated by having an adjourned session just pretil after the first or second day. But an arrange-vious to the assizes?—I think that it would in ment of that sort can only be efficient where the a very great degree.

grand jury sit three days.

The prosecutions in Warwick are conducted by attorneys, who also act as clerks to the justices; does your lordship see any inconvenience in that practice; the committee mean the practice of an attorney acting as magistrate's clerk ?—I can hardly conceive that that practice can be attended with any beneficial result; and perhaps it is the cause of more offences being carried to the assizes than otherwise would be.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-I would venture to

Are not the expenses of the prosecutions in suggest one thing; I know that in some instances the county of Warwick very considerably in-attorneys make claims on the prosecutors for excreased in consequence of their being only one tra costs over and above what the county allows, judge attending the spring assizes ?-They are and I cannot help thinking it would be extremely

beneficial if there could be a legislative provision | ficial thing to the offenders, and a great advantage that they should be entitled to maintain no to the public. action with respect to any costs incurred unless they received the money beforehand.

The committee understand, in all those cases the attorney regularly makes out a bill against his client for the expense of the prosecution, in the same way as he makes out his bill in a civil suit? Yes.

Would not the same opinion apply with greater force in cases of assault ?—Certainly.

Might it not be susceptible of considerable injustice in some cases?-That would depend on the restrictions imposed, and the character of the magistrate; I believe, generally speaking, in most places there are weekly attendances of the magistrates, in most populous towns I believe there are.

Would you extend that jurisdiction to one magistrate, because your expression was one or more magistrates?—I think the greater the number of magistrates the better.

Mr. Baron HULLOCK's examination continued. The committee understand by law the judge is not empowered to allow costs in any case whatever of misdemeanor ?—I believe not.

He begins by," Attending to take the exa"mination of the witnesses," and, in short, every thing in the same way as if he was making out his bill in an action? And he receives the county allowance, and that is the cause of complaint by the prosecutor, because, instead of his having to receive it for himself, he has something to pay. Do you think, if the treasurer was ordered not to pay any sum of money to any one but the individuals who had orders to receive it, that the judge at the assizes would have any objection to that regulation, and if there was a general regulation of that sort, would not that be the means of preventing that abuse?-That would have the effect of securing to the poor witness the money which now very often he does not get; I know an instance at the last assizes, where the attorney went with the order and got all the money, and then he said to the prosecutor, I still want money of you; the regulation suggested would obviate that objection, but still the attorney would be left to the charge on his ori-penses paid?—Not if the indictment is preferred ginal client.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY's examination resumed. What is your opinion of the advantage or disadvantage that is likely to arise to society from the committal of young offenders ?-That depends very much, I should say, on the nature and character of the gaol, and the associates and friends the young person might happen to have. It must be a very good gaol indeed in which a lad does not get worse than when he went; his character is materially hurt by going to gaol; he will not have the same respect for himself as he had before; he may have friends who will take care of him if he is dismissed; he will probably feel a degree of gratitude for being dismissed; it will impress on him the necessity of keeping out of any scrape again; and therefore it might by possibility reform a lad who, if he was to go to gaol, might not be reformed.

Does not your lordship consider that in some cases of misdemeanor it is very desirable that a judge should have that power; for instance, in the case of assaults with intent to commit rapes or injuries to the persons of very young children, particularly to persons who are in humble situations in life-the children of labourers and poor persons, who are very frequently very much abused by attempts that are made on their persons; and supposing they are bound over to the assizes, there is no possibility now of getting their ex

merely for a misdemeanor; very often at the assizes the indictment is preferred originally for the felony, that, perhaps, is thrown out, and then another indictment is preferred immediately; that indictment is found, and the trial takes place at the same assizes, and then the judge allows the expenses of the first indictment.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-In my judgment, it would be a desirable thing that the party should be tried for the capital and the minor offence at one and the same time.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY'S examination continued. In cases of indictments for goods obtained by false pretences, does not your lordship think the judges should have the same power, with respect to costs, as they have in cases of felony? is it not a very great hardship on small traders, and persons in that state of life, that they are to bear the whole of their costs and expenses?—In proportion as you throw the expenses on the county, you diminish those voluntary associations which there are in order to bear the expenses.

The committee conceive there are no associa tions which defray the expenses in the cases alluded to?—I am not sure of that; there are associations against swindlers; there is one in London, in Essex street.

Has your lordship ever considered whether any advantage might accrue from magistrates in petty sessions being empowered to punish offenders guilty of very small offences, instead of sending them to trial either to the sessions or assizes?— I never have particularly directed my attention to that, but I cannot help thinking that it might be beneficial if one or more magistrates were to have, in the case of petty felonies, the power of, proceeding in a summary way; or if the party Are there any associations in the country pleaded guilty, of inflicting at once a limited which defray the expenses of those other cases species of punishment. It would be a very great of injuries which have been alluded to ?—I am saving to the county in point of expense, and I not aware of any. believe in many instances it would be a bene

Is your lordship of opinion that the expenses

ought to be allowed in all cases of assault with intent to commit a rape ?—I should think it would be reasonable, because that comes within the range of cases that would end in a felony: and assaults to prevent apprehension would also be proper cases for allowance.

When a constable is assaulted or wounded in the execution of his duty, is there any method by which the expenses of the prosecution can be paid? Not at present: I would suggest, that in proportion as a power is given of allowing expenses, you probably increase the number of prosecutions; perhaps there might be this check on those cases, that the judges should have the power to allow them if the prosecution was directed by the magistrates.

to any body by the prisoner; in misdemeanors, on either acquittal, conviction, or confession, there was a fine to the clerk of the peace of 8s. 8d. It often happened in the county of Surrey that the prisoner, when acquitted, paid a great deal more expense than the prosecutor had been put to. The party who gained the cause paid. If the prisoner was convicted, the prosecutor paid. When he said the prisoner paid, he should explain, that the prisoner formerly paid, but, under the late act of parliament, the county paid the fee. Witnesses were paid 5s. if they came from a distance, 3s. 6d. if they came from the neighbourhood. The effect in Surrey of adjourning the quarter-sessions till just before the assizes, in order to try petty larcenies, would, he thought, be a very considerable saving of expense to all parties, and a great

Mr. Baron HULLOCK.-All that inconvenience is obviated by the discretion that is now vested in the judges with respect to the allow-convenience; but he thought it would be atance for felonies.

Mr. Justice BAYLEY.-But I would have the discretion at both ends, that the person should not have the power to apply for the allowance in those cases in which the magistrates did not direct the prosecution; but when the magistrates did direct the prosecution, then the judges should have the power to allow the costs.

(To Mr. Baron HULLOCK.) Do you think the magistrates ought to be empowered to punish offenders guilty of small offences, instead of sending them to trial?—I much doubt the propriety of such a proceeding. I conceive that such a practice would be altering the constitution of the country to a certain degree. The country is exceedingly jealous of any power of that sort being vested in the magistrates.

tended with great inconvenience to the juries that were summoned for the trial of civil causes if the judges were to proceed to the trial of prisoners in both courts first, and then to the trial of causes at the assizes. He did not see that there would be any objection to throwing the expenses of prosecutions at the assizes upon the general funds of the country instead of on the county rate or the receiver-general, unless it should be that larger sums might be allowed than when the county rate was to bear them. As to paying the clerks of the peace by a salary, or on an average of their fees for the last three years, he thought it would be almost impossible to form an average; and that the business would not be so well conducted.

Edward Jeremiah Curteis, esq. M. P. examined. By a table which had been given him by the clerk of the peace for Sussex, by the direction of the magistrates, to be laid before the committee, it appeared that the expenses attending prosecutions at the assizes in Sussex were about three parts in five beyond the expenses attending prosecutions at the sessions. He suggested that some power should be lodged with the magistrates of directing the trial of some

Charles John Lawson, esq. examined. Was clerk of the peace for the county of Surrey. The allowance to prosecutors and witnesses, in felony, at the summer assizes of 1823, and the Lent assizes of 1824, was 1,475. 18s. 8d.; at the quarter-sessions for the county during the year, 5701. 8s. 4d.; at the quarter-sessions for the borough of Southwark, 421. 8s. 6d.; at the quarter-sessions for the borough of Guildford, 17. 18s. In felonies there were no fees payable | felonies at quarter-sessions.

ABSTRACT of an Account from the respective Treasurers of the Counties of England and Wales of the several Sums received for County Rates in the Year 1823, and of their Application, in Payments for Bridges; Clerk of the Peace; Coroners; building and enlarging Gais; building and enlarging Houses of Correction; building and enlarging Lamar Alas; building and enlarging Judges' Lodgings; building and enlarging Shire-hals; building and enlarging other County Buildings; ordinary Repair of Prisons; erary Repair of other County Buildings; Maintenance of Prisoners; Conveyance of Prisoners; Expenses of Prosecutions; Treasurer's Salary; Apprehension and Conveyance of Vagrants; Apprehension and Conveyance of Scotch and Irish Paupers by Vagrant Pass; Clerk of Assine, and of other Officers of Assizes; Militia, Local Militia, and Volunteers; Clerk of Lieutensary; Lieutenancy Meet. ings; Printing, Stationery, and Advertising; Allowances to King's Bench and Fleet Prisons, by Statute 53 Geo. III.; Parliamentary Returns; Under-Sheriff: Liberaces of Debtors; Interest of Money borrowed on Mortgage of County Rate; Principal Mimey burrowed on Mortgage of County Rate paid off; Incidental Expenses.