lated. With regard to the second relation, any body who had seen Ireland must have observed, that the state in which the Roman Catholic body other was an extremely painful one. The feel and the Protestant body were placed towards each ing of mutual hostility was constantly roused into action by the slightest occurrences. To the general principle, therefore, of the concession of what were called the Roman Catholic claims he agreed; but he was not prepared to say that perfect equality of civil rights was either fully attainable or absolutely necessary.

JOHN LESLIE FOSTER, Esq., M. P.-Since the alteration in the commercial system of Ireland, which was adopted in 1822, the cotton manufacture had occupied certain portions of Ireland in a very surprising manner, and was extending itself into others. It was now generally understood and admitted, that the system which had called itself one of protection was in fact one of prohibition; and the cessation of that system had presented an opportunity for the exertion of Irish industry in directions and to an extent never before dreamt of. In Down, Antrim, Louth, and part of the county of Dub

THOMAS FRANKLAND LEWIS, Esq., M.P.Was chief commissioner in the commission lately appointed to inquire into education in Ireland, and passed considerable time in Ireland in 1821, and again in 1823, in the commission appointed to inquire into the revenue department. Had no doubt that the state of the distillery laws had contributed materially to the unquiet condition of many parts of Ireland; by producing in large classes of persons a habit of insubordination, of open resistance to the law, and of living otherwise than by honest industry. The recent alteration in those laws had already been very salutary; and, although there was no reason to expect that illicit distillation would be wholly extinguished, he hoped it would soon cease to be one of the prominent evils and grievances of Ireland. He admitted that the substitution of beer for whiskey was desirable; but he did not think that the change would be very practicable, | lin, which had hitherto been the chief seats of or that it would produce any decided alteration in the Irish character. The removal of what were called protecting duties had produced effects on the cotton manufactures of Ireland infinitely more beneficial than the most sanguine persons had anticipated. The weaving of cotton yarn, spun in England, and sent over by the English manufacturer, was now carried on to a considerable extent in those parts of Ireland which were in easy communication with the manufacturing districts of England; and he had no doubt that it would increase. A vague alarm about the state of Ireland had hitherto somewhat retarded it; but he thought that that would gradually give way; for he had never observed that a wanton destruction of manufactories formed a part of the objects of those persons who had been active in committing outrages in Ireland. The manufacture of woollen was also going on well (though by no means so well as cotton); but that of silk was on the decline. The change which had been made in the commercial relations of Ireland with England having been highly conducive to the prosperity of the former, he should now say, that in his opinion the sources of the evils of Ireland rested on two main relations-the one the relation between landlord and tenant, and the other the relation between the Roman Catholic body and the governing authorities of the country. Many of the causes of the existing relation between landlord and tenant in Ireland were to be sought for in remote occurrences. The effects were exorbitant rents, minute subdivisions of farms, and excessive population. Nor was he aware that by any system of measures the situation of the agricultural population in England and Ireland would be rapidly or easily assimi

the linen manufacture, all the coarser fabrics of linen were disappearing before the superior profits of the cotton manufacture, and were proceeding to the westward and southward. A great deal of twist was sent from Manchester to be woven in Ireland, and then went back without passing through the operation of being bleached or dressed. The linen manufacture had, however, not retrograded; and the distilleries in Ireland were more flourishing than at any former period. The proximate causes of the fre quent occurrence of disturbances in Ireland of late years, he thought, were the extreme physical misery of the peasantry, their perfect inability to meet the demands in the shape of rent, tithes, county and parochial rates, &c., which it was attempted to enforce upon them by various pro cesses of law, and their living under institutions for which they had neither much affection nor much respect; the remote cause was, in his opinion, a radically vicious structure of society which prevailed in many parts of Ireland, which had originated in the events of Irish history, which might be in a great measure palliated, but which, he feared, it would now be extremely difficult wholly to change. The system of middle-men had been a source of great evil; but an experiment which he had made on his own estates convinced him of the practicability of introducing the English system of tenure into any part of Ireland. If Catholic emancipation were granted, although one cause of irritation would certainly be removed from the Roman Catholic peasantry, the real causes which had led to insurrectionary movements in Ireland would still, in his opinion, remain untouched. With re gard to the 40s. freeholds, their operation was to add very considerably to the number, and

still more to the misery of the existing popula- present unequal state of the law with regard to tion; and it was a complete mistake, to suppose, Catholics and Protestants was felt to be inju. that the possessors of them had any freedom of choice at elections. He thought, that if Catholics were admitted to parliament, the franchise continuing as at present, a considerable number would be returned; but that if the franchise were (as he would recommend) limited to twenty pounds, few would. Coal existed in eight parts of Ireland; and in the county of Leitrim was almost in contact with the richest iron ore; and his expectations were very sanguine as to the future prosperity of that part of Ireland from those resources.

rious to individuals, and galling to all. If the Roman Catholic body were received into the bosom of the state as good and faithful subjects, he thought a state provision for the Roman Catholic clergy would be considered a great boon, but not otherwise. The adoption of petit sessions had given great satisfaction. The raising of the elective qualification was, in his opinion, in every view of it, a measure essential to the peace of Ireland; and he should be disi posed to carry it as high as twenty pounds. Coupled with the settlement of the Catholic question, he was persuaded that such a measure would give very great permanent satisfaction. He thought it would strengthen the Protestant interest in Ireland; otherwise (although a Catholic), no one would disapprove of it more heartily than he should; for the Protestant church in Ireland was a great link in the chain which connected Great Britain and Ireland to

WILLIAM GRANT, Esq.-Was one of the commissioners of inquiry into education in Ireland. In Connaught, which was the district he had particularly examined, he found the peasantry less squalid and miserable than in the neighbourhood of Dublin. He understood that the establishment of petty sessions had given great satisfaction. The state of feeling in Ireland with regard to religious differences ap-gether, and with the security of that connexion peared to be strong; and the existence of the 40s. freeholds seemed to be generally lamented. JOHN DOHERTY, Esq., M.P.-The impunity, partly owing to the real difficulties of the law, and partly to the leaning of the juries, with which the practice of sub-letting was carried on, had materially tended to produce the superabundant population of Ireland. He thought some improvement might be made in the law with respect to sub-sheriffs; and that it was advisable to compel a higher class of persons to attend on the petit juries in the criminal courts. ANTHONY RICHARD BLAKE, Esq.-Was Chief Remembrancer of the Exchequer in Ireland. Was a native of Ireland, but had been JAMES GLASSFORD, Esq.-Had been one of almost entirely absent from 1805 until 1823. the commissioners of education in Ireland. In On his return observed a material change for the parts which he had principally visited, espethe better in the appearance of the peasantry, cially in the neighbourhood of Belfast, Hilsalthough their habitations were still very | borough, and Bannbridge, manufactures apwretched. He attributed the discomfort of peared to be in a thriving condition. He was a the Irish peasantry, as compared with the Scotch advocate, and from his professional expeEnglish peasantry, to the different principles rience in Scotland, he thought the residence of a which governed the letting of land, and the dif- | sheriff, or assistant barrister, or of some pro ferent consideration in which the peasantry were fessional gentleman, during the year, or the held in the two countries. In Ireland, land greater part of the year, in the different counties was divided into quantities of an acre, or even in Ireland, might possibly be attended with adwhich were let to the peasantry at vantage. Effects of a very injurious nature, rack-rents. The new tenants were generally throughout the country, arising from religious young men, who, trusting for subsistence to the differences, forced themselves upon his notice produce of their potato gardens, immediately while in Ireland; and he did not think that any married, and then ran up huts without windows plan for the improvement of the country could or chimneys, in which they existed for the rest be perfectly effectual, without the removal of of their lives, without having the means of the civil disabilities on account of religious making them in any degree fit for human habi-opinions which at present existed. tations. The intermediate landlords, and the DANIEL O'CONNELL, Esq.-Was not partipower they possessed of distraining upon the cularly acquainted with the southern and westoccupier, were the cause of great evil. He had ern parts of Ireland. He had an extremely found the people of Ireland more alive than high opinion of the administration of justice in formerly to what was called the Catholic question; the Court of King's Bench in Ireland, as at which he attributed to the increasing diffusion present constituted; but that of the Court of of intelligence and property among them. The Chancery was quite unsatisfactory. The con

he was satisfied the interests of Ireland were essentially identified. The feelings of religious animosity were on the increase in Ireland, inconsequence of the irritation which the constant discussion of the Catholic question produced, and which rendered life in Ireland very uncom fortable. Quieting Ireland was a measure which would relieve all orders and descriptions, and would promote the introduction of English capital into the country; but he was persuaded, that no structure raised for the benefit of Ireland could be effectually permanent unless Catholic emancipation were made the foundation and corner stone.

half an acre,

N

stitution of juries in Dublin frequently gave rea- might be most advantageously abolished, except

perhaps in the neighbourhood of Dublin. The relative landed property of Protestants and Roman Catholics, in Ireland, he should suppose, upon a very loose guess, to be as twenty to one. In Dublin, he thought that the commercial wealth of the Catholics was greater than that of the Protestants. The corporations in Ireland exacted tolls to an enormous amount, to which, in his judgment, they had no title whatever. By the magistrates in the county of Kerry hav. ing kept to themselves, as by law they were

instead of leaving it to the police inspector, there was an infinitely better police in Kerry than elsewhere. The remaining civil disabi

son to apprehend partiality. No persons could now be sheriffs of that city without first pledging themselves to take a part in politics hostile to the Roman Chatholics; and as the sheriffs had the summoning of all juries, and the formation of all grand juries, a general impression remained on the minds of the Roman Catholics that their property, or, in cases of criminal offences, their lives and liberties, were not secure. In consequence of the exclusion of Catholics and liberal Protestants, there could be no doubt that there was a great deal of unfair and unnecessary taxa-entitled to do, the appointment of the police, tion by grand juries in Dublin. Difference of religion did not appear to him at all to affect the administration of justice at the assizes in the county of Clare, or in the county of Lime-lities upon the Roman Catholics affected the rick, or in the county of Kerry; but he thought peace and prosperity of Ireland, by preventing the it did to some extent in the county of Cork, in due administration of justice; by creating actual consequence of there being, in that county, injustice in the administration of the law; by somewhat of a higher resident gentry, who kept rendering, in the opinion of the Roman Catholics each other in countenance in what the Catholics of Ireland, their lives and property less secure than called illiberality. The suspicion of partiality, those of their Protestant fellow-subjects; by giv however, did not rest upon any other persons con- ing a perpetual superiority, accompanied natu cerned in the administration of justice than the rally by triumph and even insolence, to the ruling jurors. He had a great abhorrence of the practice party, which became more marked and severe of quarter sessions, as far as it related to the as it descended among the inferior grades of civil business; but the defects in it were not society. The exclusion worked actual injustice; at all connected with the distractions of reli- for, to his certain knowledge, the Roman Cagion; they were defects in the system itself: tholics of Ireland were as sincerely attached to it cherished perjury to a frightful degree. He the succession of the crown in the present royal thought that the assistant barrister ought not to family, and to the principles of the constitution, be a practising barrister, as that tended to give and to the connexion with Great Britain, as him in some cases an undue bias; and, in his any Protestant possibly could be. The present opinion, it would be preferable that a magistrate was, in his opinion, a period peculiarly favourshould be the chairman at the quarter sessions. able to an alteration of the law; for the Roman His opinion was unfavourable of the administra- Catholics were much more disposed to go contion of justice in Ireland by individual magis-siderable lengths for the purpose of coming to a trates, although it had been somewhat improved fair and equitable arrangement with the Proby the petty sessions. The personal prejudices, testants than they had been at any former and perhaps hasty temper, of the Lord Chan- period. He himself having come to England cellor of Ireland, and the political prejudices of with a notion that many persons, even of high the persons with whom he associated, gave rea- name, who opposed the equalisation of civil son to believe, that, in the late revision of the rights, gave as reasons what he called pretexts, magistracy, the best means were not taken to was now convinced of his error; and the cir ascertain who were fit magistrates, and who cumstances which now led him to believe that were not: the Roman Catholic gentry were not the motives which he thought pretexts were at all consulted on the subject. The impression honourable and conscientious objections, were upon the minds of the Roman Catholics was, likely to make the same impression upon the that in all cases where they were before the people of Ireland. What he and the Catholics magistrates, it would be better for them to be generally were anxious for, was inquiry into Protestants than Catholics. He thought it facts, which inquiry they were persuaded would would be an improvement if some qualification | be favourable to them. One objection was, the of property were established, without which the danger of the re-assumption of the forfeited office of magistrate could not be held ;-a quali-estates: of that there was not the least appre fication amounting to at least £500 a year. For the last thirty-two years Catholics had been admissible to the freedom of the city of Dublin; but, though there was a great degree of wealth in the hands of Catholics in Dublin, there was not one instance of a Catholic having obtained his freedom, although it was very much their wish. The manor courts were extremely bad; in his humble judgment, they were not of the least use, and

hension, as the Catholic gentry and the Catholic farmers were all interested in maintaining the present state and system of property. Another objection was, that the Catholics would look to the re-establishment of the Catholic church in the room of the Protestant church. Twentyone years' intimate knowledge of those who had taken an active part in Catholic emancipation, convinced him that there was the most deter.

might be made; for that part of the system which related to the granting of money for the construction or repair of roads or other public works, was by no means satisfactory. The disabilities under which the Roman Catholics of Ireland suffered was one great cause of the indisposition of the population to respect the laws, as they excited a strong suspicion of partiality; and he was persuaded that the removal of those disabilities would change that feeling. The subdivision of land had led to the increase of the population to a degree that was productive of great inconvenience and misery in Ireland. It was very difficult to check this evil; but he thought that by carefully watching over the estates something might be done.

COLONEL WILLIAM SAMUEL CURREY.Resided at Lismore, in the county of Waterford, and had the Duke of Devonshire's pro

mined hostility on the part both of the Catholic clergy and of the Catholic laity to such a proposition. He was persuaded that there was no pledge which the Catholics would not cheerfully accede to, to secure the state against any idea of a Catholic ascendency. The equalisation of the political rights of Catholics and Protestants would, in his opinion, be advantageously accompanied by some legislative provision for the Catholic clergy. He was also convinced that the Catholics would be content to exchange the indirect political power they now possessed by means of the 40s. freeholders, for the direct advantage of the political influence they would possess if admitted to the enjoyment of equal rights. He did not think that any effect had been produced upon the minds of the lower orders of the Irish Catholics by what were called Pastorini's Prophecies. They had been discountenanced by many members of the Ro-perty under his direction. Every thing had man Catholic church, especially Dr. Doyle. been done that was possible to consolidate the The miracles performed through the inter- duke's estates, and bring them into large farms. cession of Prince Hohenloe had received the The rents were easier and better paid than most sanction of one of the Roman Catholic bishops, of those in the neighbourhood. With regard to Dr. Murray. There was no Catholic tenet the introduction of manufactures, he thought that rendered a divided allegiance necessary, in the people wanted nothing but reasonable encivil and political matters, between the govern-couragement to make them very fairly indusment and any foreign power whatever. Nor was there the slightest difference between the allegiance which a Roman Catholic owed to a Protestant sovereign, and the allegiance which he owed to a Catholic sovereign. The effect of the Orange system on the Roman Catholics in Ireland was to aggravate every feeling of dissatisfaction and dissension in the country, and to shake the allegiance of the lower classes by making them, one way or another, couple the Government and the ruling powers with the Orangemen.

He appre

trious. The religious distinctions and disabilities now existing by law, led to great jealousy and distrust between the Catholics and the Protestants; and he thought there could be no security for peace and tranquillity while those distinctions and disabilities existed. At the time of the Union the Catholics were led confidently to believe that it was Mr. Pitt's intention to recommend the removal of their disabilities; and he had heard many of them characterise their non-removal as a breach of

contract.

MAJOR-GENERAL BOURKE. The Rev. JOHN BURNETT.-Was the Inhended that the disturbances which occasionally dependent Minister of Cork. The general causes affected Ireland were principally caused by the of the disturbances which had prevailed of late pressure of distress, arising from want of suf- years in the south of Ireland were, he thought, ficient employment, excessive rents, low wages the extreme poverty and ignorance of the and prices, tithes, and local assessments; and peasantry. Their poverty made them desperate, also by the general indisposition on the part of and their ignorance made them the dupes of illthe people to respect the laws, owing, as he disposed persons. The education of the lower thought, to the state of the law in Ireland. orders would be one of the most effectual means This indisposition he attributed chiefly to the of removing the evils of Ireland, inasmuch as mal-administration of the law by inferior tribu- that would disarm other evils that acted upon nals, and especially by justices of the peace. the country. The people were disposed to receive Avery inferior and improper class of persons had education; but the Catholic priests in general trept into the magistracy. The establishment checked that disposition, in consequence, he of petty sessions had, in his opinion, done great believed, of a groundless fear on the subject of good, but that of the Civil Bill Court great proselytism. Much misapprehension, he was mischief. The assistant barrister who presided persuaded, existed among the Protestants with in the latter, being generally a practising bar-respect to the feeling of the Catholics towards rister, occasioned great hurry and other evils. Some arrangement that would secure more time, and a regular formal mode of conducting business, would be highly beneficial; for he could not say that it would be prudent to abolish the Civil Bill Court altogether. In the constitution of grand juries great improvement

them; and even if the civil disabilities of the Catholics were removed, it would be advisable, for the removal of this feeling, that the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland should consent to petition the Pope for a distinct declaration, or the authority of a general council, with regard to the doctrines which were covered with so

much obscurity, and had excited so much sus-raising of the elective franchise would, in his picion.