Roman Catholic clergy, he himself would much | find it their interest to go amongst them, and to employ for mutual advantage their capital, skill, and industry, upon the vast resources with which Ireland abounded. As to the par ticular interests to be promoted by it, he should think that, in a vast community like theirs, abounding with talent, and now becoming well educated, many individuals would shew themselves deserving of attention, and acquire situations from which profit and honour would be acquired to themselves and their families; and if only one individual of the community had this prospect before him, that would cause all others in his neighbourhood to look up to the state, and to labour with the Government for the public good. In fact, he thought it would knit together, and effectually secure the affections of the multitude as well as of individuals, and make them one people immediately, and he hoped in a few years a very happy and prosperous people. Those were his views, such as he entertained them in the presence of God and their lordships; and he might add, that he thought prosperity and tranquillity would never prevail in Ireland while the present political differences arising from religion were suffered to prevail.

prefer deriving his support, as he did at present, from the contributions of the poor people for whom he laboured; but he knew that the measure had been contemplated by persons who were anxious to relieve the Catholic laity from their present disabilities; and he would not withhold his consent from any alteration in the mode of paying the Catholic clergy, if it were conducive to an arrangement which he considered necessary for the settlement of the country. But he would sooner lay his head on a block than accede to the receiving of any relief whatever from Government in a pecuniary way, unless the disabilities under which the Catholic laity laboured were first removed. There was no disposition on the part of the Catholic church to possess themselves of any part of the revenues of the Church of England; although it might be that Roman Catholics, as well as the Dissenters of other kinds from the Establishment, might think that the present property enjoyed by the clergy of the Establishment was rather great for the means of the country. He had seen the letters which were published under the title of J. K. L. Those letters were many, and contained opinions which might be misunderstood. The opinions which he entertained with regard to the Establishment were these: He looked at the Established Church in Ireland in two lights: as a Christian community, and as a corporation enjoying vast temporal possessions. As a Christian church, consisting of a hierarchy, and professing the doctrine of the gospel, he respected and esteemed it more than any other church in the universe separated from the see of Rome; but he did unquestionably think that the amount of property enjoyed by ministers of that church was prejudicial to the interests of the established religion in Ireland, as well as to the interests of the country. If the disqualifications under which Roman Catholics laboured were removed, the jealousy which the Catholic clergy felt towards the clergy of the Establishment, in consequence of the unrelaxed efforts of the latter to oppose the Catholic claims, would be also removed; and they would be regarded as brethren labouring in the same vineyard with themselves, and seeking to promote the interests of their common country. With regard to the particular or general benefits which would, in his opinion, be produced in Ireland by the admission of the Catholics to equal rights and privileges, he thought that the general benefits produced by it would be incalculable. He was quite confident that it would put an end to those religious heats and animosities which now prevailed so generally; and that it would tranquillise the public mind effectually, and make them all sit down quietly to promote their local and general interests. The country being thus intent on its internal improvement, the capitalists of England would

WILLIAM FRANCIS FINN, Esq. Had property in the county of Kilkenny. All the property in his parish which had been sold during the last thirty years had been exclusively purchased by Catholics. The capital in the city of Kilkenny was almost exclusively Catholic. He had never heard the idea of forfeited property being precarious talked of; and almost all the property which he had described as having been purchased by Catholics was forfeited property. Though the Catholics were so much more numerous than the Protestants, there were only four or five Catholics in the magistracy of the county, and from three to six serving on the grand jury. The Roman Catholic clergy had uniformly exerted themselves, and the witness (a Catholic) with them, in settling disputes and quarrels, in putting down associations four years ago, and within the last year in exhorting the people to abstain from any thing like illegal associations.

The Rev. PATRICK CURTIES, D.D.-Roman Catholic Titular Archbishop of Armagh. His income had never come up to 5007., which was also about the average income of the Roman Catholic bishops in his province. Stated the sources from which the incomes of the Roman Catholic priests were derived. He believed that in the province of Ulster there was no parish worth less to the priest than 1007., or more than 4007. He thought it desirable that a provision should be made by the state towards the maintenance of the Roman Catholic clergy; if the measure could be accomplished without compromising the independence of the latter, or inducing the people to believe that their independence was compromised. It was only in the

state.

uni

The Rev. HENRY COOK, A. M.-Again examined. Corrected and explained some of the statements in his former examination.

case of perfect emancipation that the thing | Rome were confined to spiritual cases,ecclesi. should be proposed. If proposed without, it astical cases solely. To the Prophecies of Pastowould be understood by the people as a bribe to rini he attached no value whatever; but with the clergy. He delivered in the oath taken by reference to the extraordinary cures attributed the Roman Catholic archbishops on consecration, to the prayers of Prince Holenloe, or to other which in no respect differed from that taken by prayers in unison with his, he believed that the Roman Catholic bishops. such extraordinary cures had been effected, and The Rev. DANIEL MURRAY, D.D. Was he attributed those cures to the efficacy of Roman Catholic Titular Archbishop of Dublin. prayer. Bossuet's character of the intolerance Described the sources whence the emoluments of the Church of Rome had reference merely to of the Roman Catholic bishops, and the incomes its spiritual intolerance. As to the power of of the Roman Catholic priests, were derived. the sword to which Bossuet alluded, it was not Supposing the Roman Catholics were to be used by the Church of Rome, which had recourse placed upon an equality with the Protestants as to the arms of peace and persuasion, and emto civil rights, if a provision for the maintenance ployed even its censure with a view to amendof the Roman Catholic priesthood and bishops ment. He thought the effect on the mind of could then be so made, that the Government the people of Ireland, both clergy and laity, by should not exercise any undue influence over the removal of the civil disabilities under which the ministry of the Catholic clergy, or that the the laity laboured, would be to produce one subordination of the inferior clergy to the supe-versal feeling of gratitude and attachment to the rior authorities should not be diminished, he should consider it an unobjectionable measure. The nomination of the Roman Catholic bishops was vested in the Bishop of Rome; but for many years he had not appointed, except on the His Grace the LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CASHEL. recommendation of some portion of the Irish- Had resided at Cashel since 1822. There had Catholic clergy. On the occurrence of a been three unions in his diocese under his vacancy, it was usual for the clergy, or the chapter, to send three names to the Pope for his selection, although his practice always was to nominate the first. There would be a very serious objection, however, to those three names being previously submitted to the Government of the country. But the Roman Catholics would be very happy to give any pledge in their power, that no person not well affected to the State and to the Government should be raised to the office of bishop. The usual oath of allegiance would, he thought, be a sufficient pledge in individuals who were known to respect the sanctity of an oath as much as any other description of people in the world. It would be also very objection-poor of England in that respect, and mutually able, in the event of a provision being made for the Catholic clergy, that the Government should have any thing to do with the apportionment of it. With regard to the education of the people in Ireland, it was certainly much impeded by a suspicion that an intention was entertained of converting the Catholic children to Protestantism. He would not wish the Bible to be read in the schools, without explanation. Roman Catholics did not consider the sacred writings as the sole rule of faith. They considered them only a part of the revealed word of God, which consisted both of the written and unwritten word; and of course it would be training up the children in a principle which Roman Catholics did not recognise, if that idea were to be impressed upon them. He thought that the children of both religions might be educated together for all literary purposes, but he would wish that their religious education should be wholly distinct. The communications between the Catholic Church in Ireland and the Church of

authority. The Tithe Composition Act, as far as it had gone, appeared to be popular among the poor; and he believed it would have been carried universally into effect, were it not for the opposition it received from the occupiers of grass land, who paid but little tithe at present. He did not know what the state of the poor was within his diocese. At Cashel, and its neighbourhood, they were particularly distressed; they wanted employment. It was difficult to say how the poor who were unable to work from age or sickness were maintained. There existed no fund for the purpose; but the poor of Ireland were very different from the

assisted one another to an extreme degree. The reports of his own clergy had been favourable as to the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy, who were much respected. The discussions respecting the use of the Bible in the schools, had occasioned a great number of the Catholic children to be withdrawn. He thought considerable mischief had arisen from the discussions which had been instituted by the Bible Society, who had completely defeated the object they had in view. The generality of the clergy, he conceived, were adverse to the Catholic claims; but he had had no means of ascertaining what the general impression was upon that point. Party seemed to run extremely high on both sides; and every thing was strongly coloured. A great variety of reports of intended murders and massacres were circulated, which, on investigation, turned out to be mere fabrications. He had not the slightest apprehension for his own security. He could not say whether or not, if the Catholics and Protestants enjoyed equal

mons to introduce a bill for the regulation of magistrates, but generally of the magistrates af parish vestries, which, if it were adopted, would, he hoped, remove some, though not all the evils of the system.

Rev. JOHN BURNETT, again examined. His former evidence, without explanation, would appear to make the Roman Catholic system, as it existed in Ireland, quite a harmless thing. He should not fairly represent Catholicity did he not say that there were Catholic books in general circulation in the country, that were subversive of every first principle of morality and religion. The leaders of the Catholic party made use of the question of Catholic emancipation to keep up a spirit of irritation in the country. Every species of education was opposed by the Catholic priesthood. Any measures which might give the Catholics an ascendancy would materially interfere with the improvement of the country.

WILLIAM SHAW MASON, Esq.-Had been engaged in taking the late census of Ireland, and had published three volumes of the parochial survey. Explained the mode in which he proceeded in obtaining the information he had collected, and his reasons for believing that the returns were in general accurate.

petty sessions, and at the general quarter sessions. From his experience he thought that some alteration might advantageously be made in what was called the process by a writ of custodiam. With the exception of the grand jury of the city of Limerick, which had shewn some partiality on the subject of presentments, he thought all the grand juries upon the Munster circuit conducted themselves with propriety. The question of Catholic emancipation kept the country in a state of fever; for the lower class of the people took a deep interest in it; and although it would be presumptuous in him to form an opinion upon it, he thought that until that question was settled, no other remedy could be effectually applied to tranquillise the country. He never could trace any connexion between the outrages of 1821, 1822, and 1823, and the question of Catholic emancipation. He thought the constabulary bill had been of great use in Ireland.

WILLIAM SHAW MASON, Esq., again examined. Delivered in the returns referred to in his last examination. The relative proportion of Catholics and Protestants in Ireland appeared to him to be as follows: In the province of Leinster, 7 Catholics to 1 Protestant; in the province of Munster, 123 Catholics to 1 Protestant; in the province of Ulster, 1 Catholic to 1 Protestant; in the province of Connaught, 20 Catholics to 1 Protestant; and in the whole of Ireland, 3 Catholics to 1 Protestant.

JOHN STAUNTON ROCHFORT, Esq.-Had acted for thirty years as a magistrate of the county of Carlow and the Queen's County. Thought the introduction of the petty sessions a great improvement; but that they ought to be made more respectable, by providing sessions' rooms. He conceived that the restoration of the Roman Catholics to the enjoyment of civil The Rev. JAMES DOYLE, D.D., again exand political privileges would produce very bene-amined. If a Roman Catholic penitent, after ficial effects in the country. He had never having confessed his own sins, stated to the known an instance in which a Catholic priest priest that he was cognizant of a great sin inhad employed his influence improperly with re- tended to be committed by a third person, the spect to the public tranquillity, although there priest was not at liberty either to discover the were times when he thought they did not exert name of that third person, or to warn the party themselves as much as they might have done. likely to suffer by the act; but it was his duty He thought there would be no difficulty in the to persuade the penitent to use every means to extension of moral and religious education in induce such third person to relinquish his purIreland, if the parties met with a feeling of con- pose; and unless the penitent promised to do ciliation. In his opinion, the system of grand so, it was the duty of the priest to withhold jury presentments and local taxation required absolution from him. The secrets communirevision; but the final adjustment of what was cated in confession were such as the Roman called the Catholic question he most certainly Catholic clergy were supposed to become ac thought essential to the comfort and prosperity quainted with as ministers of the sacrament of of Ireland. Raising the qualification for voting penance; and, as their rite of confession was would also, he thought, be advantageous. known to the laws, and their doctrines with regard to it universally acknowledged to exist in their church, they did not consider that the oath which bound them to discover any treason against the state, or against his majesty, which might come to their knowledge, obliged them to reveal any thing with which they might become acquainted in sacramental confession. Advert.

Was

The

MATTHEW BARRINGTON, Esq. crown solicitor for the Munster circuit. crimes committed during the late disturbances were murders, attacking of houses, and searching for arms. The objects stated were, to get possession of the land, and to remove tithe proctors. Justice could not be better administered in Westminster than it was in the recording to the state of the poor in Ireland, he obcourts and the assize courts. The sheriffs' court was little held in Ireland; but in the sessions court he thought that justice was very fairly administered. He did not speak of individual

served, that there were two measures by which, in his opinion, they might be relieved in some degree from the degraded and wretched state in which they were. He thought that if the Ca

brethren. He considered Catholic emancipation necessary for the settlement of Ireland, and was persuaded that if it were granted, Ireland would in the course of time be as happy a country as any in the world. His feeling with respect to a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy was, that it would be very desirable for the community at large in Ireland.

tholic question was settled, and general con- anxious to be on a level with their Protestant fidence and tranquillity permanently established in Ireland, industry would be so much promoted, and agriculture, trade, and manufactures so far advanced, that most of the poor would get employment and higher wages, and their condition would rapidly improve. If, in addition, there were a modified system of poor rates established in every parish-nothing, even in principle, like that which prevailed in Englandbut a legal and standing committee in each parish, who would ascertain the really poor, and be entitled to appropriate to their relief collections to be made at the different places of worship, much good would be effected. At present, whether many instances occurred of the poor perishing from actual want, he did not know one instance, however, he was acquainted with—but he could state with confidence that great numbers died prematurely from the consequences of want; they became feeble, then lay in bed, and gradually died off. He conceived that the principal source of the amelioration in the condition of the poor in Ireland must be derived from increased habits of industry; but he thought, before God, that it was utterly impossible that the desirable result could take place unless the Catholic question were settled.

The Rev. JOHN KIELY.-Was a clergyman of the Roman Catholic church, at Mitchelstown, in the county of Cork. He was satisfied that the disturbances in his neighbourhood in 1822 and 1823 originated in the conduct of Mr. Hoskins, the agent to the Courtenay property; and in the breaking of the provincial banks. He could never discover that those disturbances had any relation to the Government; they were merely confined to rents and lands. He, and all the Roman Catholic priests whom he knew, had used their utmost influence to prevent the outrages, and to promote submission to the laws. In order to obviate complaints on either side, he thought it would be well to establish a political level between the two great parties in Ireland, the Protestants and the Roman Catholics, and fix the qualification for the elective franchise at a minimum for that purpose; which minimum he thought would be from seven to ten pounds for a freeholder in the country. In the towns he would leave the freeholds as they were. The population of Ireland were anxious to have manufactures established, in order to find employment in them; and, as far as his knowledge of the county of Cork went, he would stake his existence on the security of any property embarked in that way at the present time, if the party questions which existed in the country were set at rest. The knowledge of the English language was progressive in Ireland. He thought that there were at least three that spoke English now to one that spoke it when he was fourteen years of age. All orders of the Roman Catholic population were very

Colonel WILLIAM VERNER.-Had been a member of the Orange society since the year 1796. The society was formed in 1795 for the purpose of supporting his majesty, the govern ment, the laws of the country, and the established religion; and in opposition to rebellion and rebels of every description. Produced va. rious papers containing their regulations, and the declaration of their principles. By Protestant ascendancy was meant that the king, the church, the houses of parliament, and all confidential and principal officers should be exclusively Protestant. The object of the Orange societies was, not to resist concession to the Roman Catholics, but to oppose rebellion and sedition, in whatever shape they appeared. In the first place, they opposed a society called Defenders, and afterwards United Irishmen, and latterly a society called Ribbonmen. The processions of the Orange lodges had sometimes been accompanied with outrages, but he did not recollect any instance in which the Orangemen had been the aggressors. There were two orders of Orange societies, orange and purple ; the purple was the higher. An Orangeman was not bound to hold any thing secret, except the signs and pass-words. The Orange societies ceased to exist on the passing of the late act. It was out of the hostility of the Catholics to the Protestants that the Orange societies had originally sprung. He did not think that the concessions that it was now proposed to make to the Roman Catholics were likely to lead to the tranquillity of the parts of Ireland with which he was acquainted, because the qualifications that were offered as a boon to reconcile the Protestants to the measure, he meant the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders, and the paying of the priests, he did not think would have that effect. The proposed concessions would, in his opinion, give the Roman Catholics a power that would be very alarming to the Protestants. He would be more disposed to deprive the Catholics of some of the privileges which they at present possessed, than to give them more.

The Rev. HOLT WARING.-Had been a member of an Orange society since 1798. The original object of that society was the protection of the persons and property of those who joined it, and who had been most violently assailed. Explained the signs and pass-words, the catechisms, the degrees, the oaths, &c. He thought it would conduce to the tranquillity of Ireland to take away the elective franchise from the Catholics; and that it would be better to recur