Mr. KATZ. I don't write no reports. There was no necessity for it. Senator MCNAMARA. Do you belong to any union now?

Mr. KATZ. At the present time I don't belong to any place.

Senator MCNAMARA. When you were trying to organize Max Factor, did you belong to a recognized union?

Mr. KATZ. An organizer, Mr. Senator, don't belong to any union. I have a withdrawal card from my organization, the steamfitters. Of course, I was out of the trade, working in the field as an organizer, so you pay out of the trade $2 a month in order to protect my death benefits.

Senator MCNAMARA. Were you a trained steamfitter? Had you served an apprenticeship?

Mr. KATZ. I used to do alteration plumbing back in New York years ago.

Senator MCNAMARA. Were you a member of the plumbers union at that time?

Mr. KATZ. No. At that time the alteration plumbers had no recognition. We were an independent group.

Senator MCNAMARA. Working in the building trades, or is it shipyard alteration?

Mr. KATZ. No; it is alteration of tenements, tubs, bathtubs.

Senator MCNAMARA. You were not a member of the union at that time?

Mr. KATZ. There was no union at that time, except for a small group of 600 workers.

Senator MCNAMARA. You had an organization that was not a recognized union in this maintenance or whatever field you call it?

Mr. KATZ. I didn't have no organization. I was strictly a plumber. Senator MCNAMARA. A nonunion plumber?

Mr. KATZ. A union plumber in our own group, like the electricians had an alliance and another one had an association. We were an unincorporated association.

Senator MCNAMARA. It was an unaffiliated association?

Mr. KATZ. That is right. We paid no dues. We met every month and discussed the problems in the area and would like to affiliate with the UA. But the UA did not want to take alteration plumbers, fellows that did the repair work, and there was so much unemployment that we just worked where we could.

Senator MCNAMARA. Did you have a large group in this association that paid no dues?

Mr. KATZ. I believe there was about six or seven hundred.
Senator MCNAMARA. Six or seven hundred?

Mr. KATZ. Yes.

Senator MCNAMARA. Did you have a license to do plumbing by the State of New York?

Mr. KATZ. We were not plumbers. I want to stand corrected.
Senator MCNAMARA. You were not plumbers?

Mr. KATZ. We were not plumbers. On alteration plumbing, the one who has to fight up the final gas pipe and get checked out has to be licensed. We were the helpers to the plumbers-helpers' helpers' helpers there is a first-class, second-class, and general helper. Senator MCNAMARA. What category were you?

Mr. KATZ. I reached the first class.

Senator MCNAMARA. First-class helper.

Mr. KATZ. That is right.

Senator MCNAMARA. The journeyman had to have a license?

Mr. KATZ. That is right.

Senator MCNAMARA. Was the journeyman a member of the union? Mr. KATZ. The journeymen at the time had licenses, and at that time there, as I can recall, there was quite a heavy battle between the building trades and other groups.

Senator MCNAMARA. Is that the only union you ever belonged to? You were a dues-paying member of the United Association. Is that the only union you belonged to?

Mr. KATZ. I belonged to the union in California, and was a duespaying member.

Senator MCNAMARA. Do you have a withdrawal card from the machinists?

Mr. KATZ. Yes.

Senator MCNAMARA. When you worked trying to organize Max Factor, you mentioned some other group. Who were they? Mr. KATZ. The processors and fabricators.

Senator MCNAMARA. Who are they affiliated with?

Mr. KATZ. The A. F. of L.

Senator MCNAMARA. Is that a division of the chemical workers' union?

Mr. KATZ. What?

Senator MCNAMARA. Is that a division of the chemical workers' union?

Mr. KATZ. No.

Senator MCNAMARA. They must have some affiliation with some international. Are they an independent international union? I mean, independent in that the A. F. of L. is an international union? Processing and what?

Mr. KATZ. Fabricating.

Senator MCNAMARA. Is that an international union?

Mr. KATZ. It is a local union.

Senator MCNAMARA. Were they affiliated internationally with some outfit.

Mr. KATZ. They were affiliated with some organization.

Senator MCNAMARA. You don't know who they were affiliated with? Mr. KATZ. A. F. of L. It has Federal locals, industrial locals. Senator MCNAMARA. This was a Federal charter?

Mr. KATZ. A Federal local.

Senator MCNAMARA. Chartered directly from the A. F. of L., not through an international, is that the way you understand it? Mr. KATZ. Yes.

Senator MCNAMARA. I see. Thank you.

Senator GOLDWATER. I just have one question.
Mr. Katz, you are not working?

Mr. KATZ. At present I am at liberty.

Senator GOLDWATER. If you were offered a job tomorrow by Mr. Shefferman, would you go to work for him?

Mr. KATZ. After these hearings and all the things that went on in the past that I heard ; no.

Senator GOLDWATER. Would you go to work for a similar organization?

Mr. KATZ. No.

Senator GOLDWATER. Would you go to work for a union?

Mr. KATZ. Yes, sir.

Senator GOLDWATER. Are you essentailly, then, a union man?
Mr. KATZ. That is right.

I gave skin all my life for the unions.

Senator GOLDWATER. And you still maintain your loyalty to the union movement?

Mr. KATZ. Definitely.

Senator GOLDWATER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. KENNEDY. We will go on to another witness, but I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that the record seems to indicate from Mr. Katz' testimony that in 1951 there was an attempt to organize the plant at Englander; that Mr. Katz sent some pickets out there even prior to the time that there were any employees at the plant; that subsequently, after some conversations with higher-ups, he withdrew the pickets; that the teamsters went ahead and organized the plant of Englander; that subsequently in 1953 when Mr. Katz was in Chicago, he was called up to Mr. Shefferman's office. He had a conference with Mr. Shefferman and our records show it was on January 8, 1953. The matter that was discussed, according to the records we have, was the Englander; that Mr. Katz then made arrangements to go to New York. He went to New York and according to his testimony it was to go to the plant and look at people coming in and out of the plant. He went there on one day, according to his testimony, and he cannot identify where the plant was, what it looked like. All he can say is that he stood outside the plant.

For this standing outside the plant in the morning and the afternoon he received $2,800. He also stated that in the organization drive on the Max Factor Co., which was ultimately unsuccessful, that he never talked to Mr. Sidney Korshak regarding the matter. Specifically, he didn't talk to him in October 1956.

I would like at this time to call Mr. Sidney Korshak. Maybe Mr. Katz will be recalled.

The CHAIRMAN. You may stand aside for the present. I think you will be recalled.

(Committee members present at this point: Senators McClellan, Goldwater, and McNamara.)

The CHAIRMAN. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KORSHAK. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY R. KORSHAK

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and business or occupation.

Mr. KORSHAK. Sidney R. Korshak, K-o-r-s-h-a-k, 2970 Lake Shore Drive is my residence, in Chicago, Ill. 134 North La Salle Street is my office. I am an attorney. I have been practicing since 1930. The CHAIRMAN. I assume you waive counsel?

Mr. KORSHAK. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. We will get right on the question of the Max Factor Co. Did you ever talk to Mr. Katz regarding an organizational drive in the Max Factor Co.?

Mr. KORSHAK. Mister who?

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Katz.

Mr. KORSHAK. In 1956, I believe I was in the Friars' Club in California. I received a telephone call from Mr. Katz. He met me in front of the place. He told me that he was organizing the company, and that he was having difficulty getting with management. He understood that one of the Factors was from Chicago. He asked if I would arrange a meeting with management.

Mr. KENNEDY. Which Factor was that?

Mr. KORSHAK. This was a Mr. John Factor. Mr. John Factor was in the club at this particular time. I asked Mr. Katz to wait. I walked in and told Mr. Factor what I had just learned from Mr. Katz. Mr. Factor said that the only one that he knew at the plant was a halfbrother, and that he was in Europe at the time, so he couldn't or wouldn't talk to anyone else. I went out and communicated that to Mr. Katz.

Mr. KENNEDY. I am sorry, I will have to go back.

How did he learn about you in the first place?

Mr. KORSHAK. I would imagine that he called my office in Chicago. Mr. KENNEDY. How did he know? Is it Jack Factor?

Mr. KORSHAK. Well, I tried to state that a minute ago, Mr. Kennedy. He presumed that because Mr. John Factor was from Chicago, that maybe I knew him. He didn't know that I knew him. He just thought that I might. He asked me to intercede, if I did know him. Mr. KENNEDY. So what did you do? I am sorry to go over it.

Mr. KORSHAK. I went back into the club and I talked to Mr. Factor. I told him that there was a Mr. Katz who told me that he had organized the Max Factor Co. in Los Angeles.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you say you went back into the club, did you call Mr. Factor?

Mr. KORSHAK. No; he was in the club.

Mr. Factor was in the club.

Mr. KENNEDY. Which Factor was in the club?

Mr. KORSHAK. John Factor. He has nothing to do with the business, and had nothing to do with the business. I believe he is a half brother of the man who owns the business.

Mr. KENNEDY. As a matter of interest, is he the one who was kidnaped by Roger Touhy?

Mr. KORSHAK. That is correct. I told Mr. Factor of the conversation I just had had with Mr. Katz. He told me that the only one that he talked to at that plant was his half brother; that his half brother was in Europe.

Mr. KENNEDY. What is his half brother's name?

Mr. KORSHAK. I believe that would be Max Factor. That he was in Europe at the time, and that was that. I went out and communicated that to Mr. Katz.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you discuss this again at all after that?

Mr. KORSHAK. I don't know. I really don't recall.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you remember telephoning him regarding the matter in October, again, 1956?

Mr. KORSHAK. No; I have no recollection of that telephone call. That may have been in response to an inquiry as to whether or not Mr.

Factor had returned from California-from Europe or whether they were interested. I would only be hazarding a guess on that. I don't know. I have no recollection of that telephone call.

Mr. KENNEDY. We have a toll ticket from your office. It shows a telephone call to Mike Katz, Tuckerman 5-6028. It is on October 25, 1956. The conversation began at 9:15 and ended at 9:33. The conversation lasted 18 minutes and 9 seconds. Do you remember that? Mr. KORSHAK. No; I really don't. I have no recollection of it. Mr. KENNEDY. Is your telephone number BU 1–1433? Mr. KORSHAK. It was then. It is changed now.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, it was from your residence, a telephone call from your residence. As I say, the telephone conversation lasted 18 minutes. But you say you definitely did meet with Mr. Mike Katz? Mr. KORSHAK. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Katz' testimony was that he had not met with Mr. Korshak or knew that Mr. Korshak knew anything about this matter, or that he had talked to him on the telephone.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you not recall why you may have called him? That is less than a year ago. Can you not recall why you may have called him at that time?

Mr. KORSHAK. Senator, a great deal of my business is transacted on the telephone. I would be hazarding a guess if I said other than I can't recall.

Was that telephone call, Mr. Kennedy, around the same time that the Max Factor Co. was being organized?

Mr. KENNEDY. That is correct.

I

Mr. KORSHAK. Then if I guessed, I would say that I called him to tell him he may have tried to reach me. He may have wired me, or attempted to reach me. I may have been returning the call. Í am sure it would have to do with the Max Factor Co. I am sure that I would have told him that I have no interest whatsoever in the Max Factor Co., and that Mr. John Factor wasn't interested in the Max Factor Co.

Mr. KENNEDY. I have a few other matters that I want to discuss at this time.

Mr. KORSHAK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know Mr. Nathan Shefferman?

Mr. KORSHAK. I do.

Mr. KENNEDY. How long have you known him?

Mr. KORSHAK. I met him in 1952, when I commenced my relationship with the Englander Co.

Mr. KENNEDY. You were representing the Englander Co. at that time?

Mr. KORSHAK. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Shefferman was also doing some work for the Englander Co.?

Mr. KORSHAK. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. The teamsters started an organizational drive about that time, or shortly afterward?

Mr. KORSHAK. Where was this?

Mr. KENNEDY. In the Central Conference?

Mr. KORSHAK. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. This was much later, in 1955?