Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I am clean with you. But there are quite a few that went down there that I never discussed it with.

Senator ERVIN. Did you have reason to believe that at the time you paid those tickets or authorized this trip and engaged the bus that they were going there for the purpose of voting for Craddock? Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir.

Senator ERVIN. Are you swearing that you thought they were going to vote for somebody else?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Senator, I hadn't discussed this with very many of the people.

Senator ERVIN. You don't answer the question. Did you have reason to believe they were going down there to vote against Craddock when you participated in this?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir; I didn't believe they were going to vote against him or for him. The only ones I discussed it withthere were very few of them I discussed it with, because I was quite busy, as I told you before.

Senator ERVIN. You are telling me now that you weren't concerned about the election of Craddock, and your brother in discussing this wasn't concerned about the election of Craddock, but you merely wanted these men to go down there and cast a free and untrammeled ballot for the candidate of their choice?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I don't believe you are getting the picture. Many times while they were discussing this thing, I would lock my door, so they wouldn't come in there while I was trying to vote.

Senator ERVIN. I am a man of average intelligence, but I think I am getting the picture.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I was trying to tend to my office, and actually I was snowed under, trying to tend to Ermon's business, if you understand what I was talking about. I was pretty well loaded at that time.

Senator ERVIN. You are stating here solemnly upon your oath that these men were not sent down there at the expense of your local union with the idea that they should vote for Craddock. Is that what you are saying?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. That is not what I am saying. I believe you said that.

Senator ERVIN. What do you say about that?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. About what?

Senator ERVIN. About whether the purpose of sending these men down there to Baton Rouge at the expense of your local was so that they could vote in the election of 798 for Craddock, for business manager of 798?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I am saying that I had no part in it, in that part of it.

Senator ERVIN. Read him that question again. (The question was read by the reporter.)

Senator ERVIN. That is a very simple question.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Well, I am afraid I can't answer that. You asked about the purpose of the whole local

Senator ERVIN. Wait a minute. You are stating under your oath that although you actually cleared these 40-odd men and although you paid the bus out of union funds, the expense of this trip, that you don't have any knowledge as to why they went down there?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir.

Senator ERVIN. All right.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. They went down there to vote.
Senator ERVIN. And for Craddock, didn't they?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Not necessarily.

Senator ERVIN. Didn't you think they were going there to vote for Craddock?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I think the ones I discussed it with were; yes. Senator ERVIN. You had no reason to think that any of the others were going to do anything else.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I had no reason to think what they were going to do, because I hadn't discussed it with all of them. I think there were possibly some relatives going down there for some people on the ballot.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Some of the relatives. Some of the other officers on the ballot at that time, they had some relatives in our local union.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not saying you would arrange for these folks to go down there without knowing or expecting to know how they were going to vote, do you?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. That I was what?

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't arrange for these folks to go down there without having some idea about for whom they were going to vote?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I had an idea. But he said I knew, and I don't.

Senator ERVIN. I asked you several times if the purpose of sending them down there was not so that they could vote for Craddock. Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. There were other people on the ballot besides Craddock.

Senator ERVIN. You don't answer questions, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I am trying to make myself clear.

The CHAIRMAN. You are making the record here. I want to warn you. You are making a record. These questions, most anybody knows what they mean.

Did you have them go down there and know they were going down there and was it your idea that they were going down there to vote for Craddock? Is that what you thought at the time and understood at the time?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. There was a big ballot up, and Craddock wasn't the only friend that people going down there were to vote for. The CHAIRMAN. You still don't answer the question.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I will answer "No," then, to that question. Senator ERVIN. I will ask you if you didn't know when you granted these clearances, signed them, and when you-and when the trip was planned and when you paid the expenses of the trip, if you didn't know that the purpose of sending these men down there was so that they would vote for Craddock as business agent of 798, if that wasn't the purpose?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Not all of it; no, sir.

Senator ERVIN. It was a substantial part.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. It was part of it; yes, sir. I can't say which was a substantial part.

Senator ERVIN. Every man that went on that trip at the expense of your local union that you had discussed it with had assured you expressly or impliedly that he would vote for Craddock, isn't that so? That is a simple question.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I can't answer that because

Senator ERVIN. Read him the question and have him tell me why he can't answer that question.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. There was another officer in that race also that I would like to explain.

Senator ERVIN. Answer that question first, Mr. Griffin.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I can't answer it.

Senator ERVIN. You are swearing upon oath that you can't answer that question?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir; I can't.

Senator ERVIN. I will put it another way to you and see if you can answer it.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Can I make a statement for the record?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I will make it this way: that every man I talked to I hoped would vote for Craddock.

Senator ERVIN. Let's put it further. Every man you talked to produced the impression in your mind that his purpose in going down there would be to vote for Craddock.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I suppose so.

Senator ERVIN. You could have answered that.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Could I explain?

Senator ERVIN. Let me ask you one more.

There wasn't a single man that went down there that told you beforehand that he was not going to vote for Craddock but was going to vote for his opponent?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Not that I remember.

Senator ERVIN. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead and explain.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. We have had quite a few members of 798 even prior to that who resided in south Arkansas. I imagine they have as many people who regularly follow the pipeline industry who reside in south Arkansas as we have who regularly follow the pipeline industry.

It just so happened that a brother to one of our members was also a member of 798, and he was also on that ballot. The way you were phrasing the question and I tried to explain to you, but you wouldn't give me a chance to a minute ago, was he was also mentioned quite frequently.

Senator ERVIN. What was he running for?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Executive board.

Senator ERVIN. There wasn't any opposition to that, was there?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; there was quite a string of executive board members on that ballot, and quite a few races besides Jim Craddock that people were pro and con for.

Mr. DUFFY. You were trying to influence concerning that particular man, too, were you not?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. He is my friend; I will admit that.

Mr. DUFFY. It doesn't make too much difference who you were influencing if you were trying to use your influence.

The CHAIRMAN. Maybe we didn't make this broad enough.
Senator ERVIN. Maybe they wanted to elect all the officers.
The CHAIRMAN. Maybe we didn't cover the rest of them.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. We also have other friends in the pipeline industry.

The CHAIRMAN. You had a slate, then, and it wasn't just Craddock. You wanted to elect the slate; is that right?

Mr. GENTRY. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. I think so. Is that correct?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir. The only two I was acquainted with was Craddock and Troy Burson.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if they prepared a ticket and gave it to them, a sample ballot to show who to vote for?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir. I don't recall seeing the ticket until after the election. I believe I did see one after the election sometime, when one of the boys brought one back.

The CHAIRMAN. Showing how they handled the matter?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. They brought me a sample ballot.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything else at this time?

Mr. ADLERMAN. I have one or two questions.

Mr. Griffin, you were financial secretary since 1955 ?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. At that time, how much was in the union accounts, all three accounts? Did you have more than three accounts?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I would have to look at the records to say. Mr. ADLERMAN. Just roughly what is your estimate?

The CHAIRMAN. You do have three separate accounts for your union; is that right?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The general fund

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. The organizing fund and building fund. Mr. ADLERMAN. How much money did you have when you took over office?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. We had approximately, I believe, $80,000 in the building fund, $80,000 or $90,000. I am not sure.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How much did you have in the other funds?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I don't recall exactly. It would be in excess of $50,000 in both funds.

The CHAIRMAN. It may expedite things if you have those figures to give them to him.

Mr. MUNDIE. As of June 30, 1955, they had $149,166.47 in all funds. The CHAIRMAN. In all three funds?

Mr. MUNDIE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He might not remember that. For your information, would that be correct?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. What is your present balance?

The CHAIRMAN. In the three funds?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I imagine the cash balance is less than--around $10,000 or less. I don't know exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. In all three funds?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is it nearer $4,000 than $10,000?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I don't recall. I was just saying it wasn't over $10,000. That is what I was trying to say.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you think it might be nearer $4,000 than $10,000?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. It might be. You probably have more
Mr. ADLERMAN. You are financial secretary.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Well, I read the financial reports myself on occasion.

Mr. DUFFY. Don't you know how much money you have in the bank right now?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He says $10,000.

Mr. DUFFY. We think it is close to $4,000 and that is pretty close to bankruptcy, Senator.

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I thought there was that much in the building fund, but I am not sure.

Mr. ADLERMAN. During your time in office, what was the major expense made by the union?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. The major one, I guess, was for the building. Mr. ADLERMAN. How much was that?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. The building, itself, was $65,000, I believe. Of course, we had some extensive remodeling to do.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How many members do you have in your union?
Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Around 700.

Mr. ADLERMAN. What is your annual income from dues and assessments and so forth?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I would have to read one of those audit reports to give it to you.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have those figures?

Mr. MUNDIE. I have the income for the year.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Give it to us for 1955.

Mr. MUNDIE. In 1955 their income was $47,995.07; in 1956, $52,478.71; 1957, $208,038.51; and in 1958, $37,776.54.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you have any other major expense outside the $65,000?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Well, for the airplane.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How much did you spend for that? That is, for the two planes together, with the installation of equipment? Would it be in the neighborhood of $71,000?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I am guessing between $70,000 and $100,000. That is an estimate.

Mr. ADLERMAN. The minimum, would you say, would be $71,880? Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. I would say around that.

Mr. ADLERMAN. At the present time you say your balance is under $10.000?

Mr. ERMON GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?

We will have to recess and come back this afternoon. We will reconvene at 3 o'clock.

(Members of the subcommittee present at time of recess: Senators McClellan and Ervin.)