project and, by any means whatsoever, create a situation wherein the local union who has jurisdiction will lose it to theirs and will have it upon the end of the job and hoping to retain it from there on.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a kind of jungle warfare between unions? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, there is competition between unions, let's say.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not call it warfare?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I wouldn't at this time call it warfare. The CHAIRMAN. You have felt that way about it at times? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I felt at times, Senator, that I was doing all the work and somebody else receiving the benefit.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it for the reason that there might be competition that you did not give the receipts?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. There would be a situation where I could be framed, and the general president told me that they had to pay, and here is a receipt for paying, and my orders were to receive no moneys that a man does not come up to you voluntarily and say "here," as they do when we pass a petition for the March of Dimes, for any of the charities. They sign one sheet, Senator. They don't even sign a sheet. They will give you the money and you have to ask their names and you will put it down. In this instance I wanted a record of every dime put on the envelopes as a man's receipt.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean some man other than the man who paid it?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I wanted a receipt issued for the amount received.

The CHAIRMAN. But in the name of someone other than the man who paid it?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I wanted the man's name on there who paid it but I wanted a receipt issued only to the local 706 members only, so that a union couldn't gather up one, two, or three hundred receipts and say, "Here, our members are being issued receipts showing assessments they are paying." But if they came up and paid if they didn't have to-I wouldn't pay if I didn't have to, unless I got a receipt.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not know that everybody down there knew that they had to pay, and it was an assessment and not a voluntary contribution?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I guarantee, if your Senator will take a list of the names of people that I can give him, he can go into innumerable

The CHAIRMAN. Did you give him such a list of names when he tried to interview you?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I didn't know what you were seeking.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you not refuse to talk to the investigator to give him any statement about anything?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I have been interviewed by the investigator repeatedly but I was advised to save my statements for the committee. The CHAIRMAN. So do not blame us for not giving you any more information. We tried to talk to you.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I am not blaming anyone except the circumstances that have developed 10 years after a job.

The CHAIRMAN. You said it wasn't an assessment. Do you know why Jerry Ryan, general organizer of the international, would send

out telegrams such as these that have been identified and are now exhibit 8 in this proceeding?

(The documents were handed to the witness.)

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, this is stating exactly what I told our people.

The CHAIRMAN. That you had no right to collect it?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. That we were not collecting assessments. The only moneys we would take into the treasury of our local union was voluntary contributions.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you got anything in writing to show that, anything in your record anywhere in the world that it was a voluntary contribution?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I want to have the minutes of the regular meetings of our local union and the called meetings.

The CHAIRMAN. Those minutes are not binding upon the members of other unions. That might apply to yours.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. But our constitution was, Senator, and every member had access to a constitution.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you had access to one, too, that told you that you could not collect this.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, it told us we were not to assess them.
The CHAIRMAN. For over a dollar.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Not to assess them for over a dollar. It didn't say we couldn't take a voluntary contribution.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not section 105 of your international constitution say the financial secretary shall keep a correct account of the financial standing of all members of the local union, receive and account for all moneys received or disbursed by order of the local union? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I did that, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you keep an account of what you called these contributions or voluntary payments?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I tried to.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you got a record of them now?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I have a majority if not all.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the occasion for these wires being sent

from Mr. Ryan?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. May I make a correction, Senator?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I have very few, if any, records of our members. I have a record of all nonmembers of our local unions contribution that was received off of the job.

The CHAIRMAN. You have a record of all of the nonmembers of your union that was received?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I hope it is all. We gathered up cards from all over our place down there after that storm.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a record now of what part of these funds that you collected, voluntary contribution, assessments or whatever they were, from members outside of your own local, where you made any disbursement of any of those funds or distribution of any of those funds to either local 155 or local 665?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Could he read that back to me!

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I do not have. The local union may have in its records. It did have in it, when I left there, canceled checks, audits, bank statements and bank deposits of every penny that went into and every penny that was withdrawn from the accounts, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you deposit into a separate account all of the assessment money or voluntary contributions, as you term it, that you received on this job of the $3.50 per week money?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. From the beginning to a certain date I deposited every penny received off of the Pine Bluff Arsenal intact in the joint venture account, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. When was the joint venture account opened?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. The record will have to speak for itself, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Mundie, you have been previously sworn. Do you have a record of when the joint venture account was opened? Mr. MUNDIE. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. What date was it opened?

Mr. MUNDIE. The account was opened on August 7, 1951.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that about when the job started?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I don't know. We would have to get the dates of these telegrams, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. These telegrams here that I presented to you are dated September 3, 1951. That is after the account was opened.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, I couldn't possibly tell you when that job started. I have available to me, I am sure, records that will indicate the first men that went on the project because they were

volunteers.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this way, then: After this joint venture account was opened on August 7, 1951, did you thereafter deposit in that account all of these $3.50 per week assessments or payments that you received, to your local or to you individually, on this Pine Bluff Arsenal job?'

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. All of those, plus the $1 or the 50-cent ones or the $2.50 ones or any figure that might have come in.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, all moneys that you received from people who worked on this job, except the regular dues of your members, went into this joint venture account?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. That is right, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point I will ask you: Did that include the contributions you took up for charity?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Those did not go into this fund, did they?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir. They were received differently from this, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. I know, but they went into your general fund? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir. Some of them might have. Some of them might have been carried directly to the recipients by a committee. The CHAIRMAN. Well, at any rate they did not go into the joint venture fund?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, I am thinking ahead of myself. I don't recall any that went into it. It would be poor business for me to have handled it that way.

The CHAIRMAN. I am just trying to establish

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. But to swear, I just know I wouldn't operate that way. I can't believe that I would.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not believe that you would put it in there and, therefore, this is the joint venture account.

Mr. Mundie, have you examined this joint venture account from the standpoint of the bank's records?

Mr. MUNDIE. I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you found any disbursements of any of these funds by check on that account to local 665 or to local 155, Little Rock and Pine Bluff?

Mr. MUNDIE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were there any such disbursements of any of them to either of those locals?

Mr. MUNDIE. There were a few disbursements to the individual members that were participating, maybe, in the meeting or something over there.

Mr. Dove got $100.

The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about to the treasury of those unions. Mr. MUNDIE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What disbursements you are speaking of may have been in the nature of expense items that would be taken care of? Mr. MUNDIE. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Did anything go into the treasuries as a payment to either of these other local unions out of these assessments that came in?

Mr. MUNDIE. No, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make any disbursements of any of these funds you received to either of these other locals under the terms of this agreement that was entered into which has been made, I believe, exhibit 1?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir, Senator, I did not.

The CHAIRMAN. Were none due under the terms of that agreement? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. The agreement, itself, was denied by the authorities of our international union, not by me.

The CHAIRMAN. If the agreement itself, was denied, you had no right to keep the money, did you? If you are saying that the agreement was denied, that it is invalid, then you would have no right to keep any of the money, would you?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I have a right to keep all the money, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. The point I am making is that you have an agreement here, and I understand from those others that signed this agreement that their union never got a dollar out of it.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. They never did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you not agree in this agreement that periodic audits of the finances of the joint venture will be made, and after expenses are deducted for operation of the office and supervision, the remaining moneys will be equally divided?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. That was the agreement, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you carry it out?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. No, sir; not in that manner.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, in the manner that you did not distribute any of the money to them, is that correct?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, the members of their local unions paid their dues and assessments into their own local union. We did not collect any. It was originally intended that every one, all three of

our memberships, would pay into one fund, and that is where President Durkin broke down.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that these fellows who worked down there

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Paid into their local union.

The CHAIRMAN. Who paid you $3.50 a week in addition to their own local dues, had to pay another assessment to their own organization? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator, if you will pick up the sheets like I have furnished you for exhibits here, the envelopes and the receipts, you will see many of them, and I mean by many, if all of them had not been destroyed-they were retained for 6 or 7 years.

The CHAIRMAN. I am asking you if they had to pay another one. Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Here is what happened. They paid in to their own local union and Pine Bluff, for instance, didn't have a penny in their treasury and could not staff their office with journeymen. We had to make a special dispensation that apprentices could hold office. If your committee would go in and audit the books of Pine Bluff you can determine how many thousands of dollars was paid into the Pine Bluff local union in lieu of being paid into El Dorado.

You can go into Hot Springs

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean, "in lieu of being paid into El Dorado"?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. You have been led to believe, Senator, that those members at Pine Bluff paid an equal amount of assessment to El Dorado that El Dorado members paid.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Yes. I know you have.

The CHAIRMAN. That was in the testimony. You said, "led to believe," but that is sworn testimony all the way through.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. There are individuals who refused to pay into their own local union and paid into El Dorado.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not mean they would permit them to refuse to pay an assessment in their own union and let them pay it to you? Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Senator McCellan, they had the alternative to pay. Let's don't get off of that, please, sir, until you are satisfied. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Make your answer. Go ahead with

your answer.

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. Pine Bluff had no jurisdiction. They had no local union. They had had no meetings from 1945 until 1950 or 1951. They had no treasury. There were those who joined the local union who transferred into the local union for one reason or another, who paid their dues plus an assessment into Pine Bluff, which salved their conscience that they were paying an equal pro rata share for policing and upkeep. There were those who joined Pine Bluff, who couldn't salve their feeling, and who by some reason that I cannot tell you, who wanted to begin or continue paying $3.50 into El Dorado.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you ascribe any sane reason why a fellow working down there would want to voluntarily give $3.50 a week to your union?

Mr. EARL GRIFFIN. I can tell you what they tell me. They will tell you openly today, some of them, that the expense of union promotion, union improvements, is being borne by this local union and we are making money.