Dr. STEVER. Governmentwide coordination? I think we will be able to do a reasonable job there.

You know, a lot of people feel that coordination is something that everybody resists. I want to tell you that as soon as this job was announced, a number of people came up to me and said, "You must make sure that the following" and they would name the functions of the Federal Council on Science and Technology, for example-"is either retained or strengthened," because they knew that the National Science Foundation has experience in which we know this coordination is important-in our RANN program, in our oceanography programs, and in a number of areas where we share programs with other agencies. So there is not resistance to coordination on the part of agencies. When an agency feels it has a clear directive and a responsibility in science and technology to do a job, they try to do it as well as they can, and they use all of the channels they can to get that support. But if they know that they share that responsibility with others, they generally look forward to coordination.

Mr. ROBACK. Mr. Chairman, my time is up.
Chairman HOLIFIELD. You are excused.
Thank you, Dr. Stever.

Dr. STEVER. Thank you for the opportunity.

Chairman HOLIFIELD. Thank you for your response to our questions. Dr. STEVER. Thank you.

Chairman HOLIFIELD. The next witness will be Mr. Morley.

Mr. Morley, we will hear from you, and, then, we will call on Mr. Sampson who is waiting patiently in the wings.

STATEMENT OF HARRY T. MORLEY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT; ACCOMPANIED BY VINCENT HEARING

Mr. MORLEY. Fine, Mr. Chairman.

I believe you have the statement of the Secretary in the record.
Chairman HOLIFIELD. Yes.

(See p. 79.)

Mr. MORLEY. And may I ask if you have any questions with regard to the Department's activities?

Chairman HOLIFIELD. Well, we have got a lot of papers up here.
Just wait a moment until we can find it.

Any questions, Mr. Horton?

Mr. HORTON. Well, we covered a good bit of this, this morning.

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HORTON. So, I do not know that it is necessary to go back over it with Mr. Morley or the HUD representatives.

But I did ask a question to which I did not get a complete answer, and that was the question as to whether or not the legislation on the national flood insurance programs is to be submitted shortly. Can you answer with regard to that?

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir.

There was legislation, I believe, submitted last session of the Congress, and there is revised legislation that is in preparation at the present time. And it is my understanding that legislation will be submitted by the administration later on in this session of the Congress.

Mr. HORTON. That, basically, would increase the limits, as I understand it, for private and for commercial assistance?

Mr. MORLEY. That is my understanding; yes, sir.

Mr. HORTON. I assume that what was said this morning in regard to the responsibilities of OEP on the disaster side would be confirmed by you now?

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HORTON. Is it anticipated that you will take any steps to increase the ability of HUD to respond in these disaster situations?

Mr. MORLEY. You mean

Mr. HORTON. You do have a responsibility now.

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir. The Department has a mission assignment of providing disaster housing.

Mr. HORTON. Now, you are going to be asked to do more by this reorganization plan. In other words, the functions of OEP will be transferred to you, and that means you will have more responsibility. Mr. MORLEY. This is correct. The planning and coordination activities.

Mr. HORTON. Pardon me?

Mr. MORLEY. The planning and coordinating activities presently conducted by OEP.

Mr. HORTON. Are there any plans now to beef up HUD's disaster relief machinery since you will be getting these new functions?

Mr. MORLEY. Well, initially, it is anticipated by the Secretary to assume that function as presently performed by the Office of Emergency Preparedness, both in the central office and in the field. And should this function need strengthening in the months and years to come, certainly the Secretary is prepared to make recommendations to beef up to OMB and to the Congress.

Mr. HORTON. I also understand that the personnel in OEP would be transferred over to HUD?

Mr. MORLEY. That is correct.

Mr. HORTON. Do you understand that?

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HORTON. I also asked a question this morning as to whether all of the people that were in OEP would be provided for if they were transferred over; in other words, whether you have spaces for them? Mr. MORLEY. Yes, we would anticipate space in our buildings as well as in the regional office of the Department.

Chairman HOLIFIELD. Mr. Fuqua?

Mr. FUQUA. Mr. Chairman. In further response to the series of questions Mr. Horton asked, do you plan to transfer this function? Now, as I understand it when you said it will be as it has been in the past, if there is an emergency, as we have in my State with a hurricane, now and then-the last one being Agnes-the Governor would then request of the Secretary of HUD that they declare it an emergency situation or disaster, as generally is the case now?

Instead of going to the Director of OEP, it should be the Secretary of HUD?

Mr. MORLEY. That is right. The Secretary would receive the request from the regional administrator after the regional administrator and the Governor reviewed the damage that had occurred by whatever disaster.

Mr. FUQUA. Would the Governor go to the regional administrator or to the State director?

Mr. MORLEY. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FUQUA. To whom would the Governor go?

We have the State director of HUD.

Mr. MORLEY. In this case, it would be the regional administrator, of the regional office, and in the case of Florida, in Atlanta; and in his office he would have the disaster relief function that is presently residing in the Atlanta office of OEP. But that would now be a part of the Department of Housing and Urban Development in conjunction with the Governor reviewing the damage that has occurred; and, then, the recommendation would be made by the regional administrator to the Secretary of the Department as opposed to, as has been the case, the Director of OEP. The Secretary would then make his recommendation to the President.

Mr. FUQUA. So, we would then be putting another person in the line of communication to Washington, this being the regional director. And, after he decides one way or the other, then we come up here? How much time are we talking about?

Are we adding more bureaucracy to this?

Mr. MORLEY. No, sir. The present arrangement is that the Director of Emergency Preparedness in the field office, together with the Governor, reviews the damage and makes recommendation to the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness in Washington. That responsibility would be assumed by the regional administrator, and the regional administrator, in conjunction with the Governor, would review the damage, and the regional administrator would make the recommendation to the Secretary, and the Secretary to the Presidentthe same relationship as it has been with Mr. Lincoln, to the President. Mr. FUQUA. Then, assuming it is declared an emergency, the State Director of HUD would then be notified to go ahead and proceed with the programs?

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir. The President would, based on the recommendation of the Secretary, appoint a Federal coordinator in the same function as appointed at the present time, and he would be responsible for coordinating all of the Federal assistance in the area. Mr. FUQUA. Where would SBA fit in this now?

Mr. MORLEY. SBA, as the relationship presently exists with OEP, the relationship would exist with the Department of Housing and Urban Development. They have a mission assignment in the same fashion as they have a mission assignment now with OEP.

Mr. FUQUA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman HOLIFIELD. Mr. Mallary?

Mr. MALLARY. We discussed this morning the fact that in many rural areas, the Department of Housing and Urban Development is not directly involved when disasters occur. Mr. Malek thought HUD would have no problems moving in as coordinator in the event of disaster and getting some cooperation from all of the other agencies.

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Mallary, in the same fashion OEP presently works with the Farmers Home Administration and the Department of Agriculture. HUD, also, in times of emergencies in rural areas does provide disaster relief housing as well. Mr. MALLARY. One other question.

91-812-73- -6

I do not know whether it is appropriate to ask you-but I see Mr. Ink is still here. It relates to the whole structural change. I note in the President's message it says:

All the OEP responsibilities having to do with preparedness for and relief of civilian emergencies and disasters would be transferred to the Department of Housing and Urban Development. This would provide greater field capability for coordination of assistance provided by Federal agencies with that furnished by State and local communities and would further the objective of -creating a broad new Department of Community Development.

Is there a change in plans since the initial discussion here on the question of civilian emergencies?

Mr. MORLEY. I believe that was the general term that was used. in the message prepared by OMB, the civil emergencies. The functions that will be assumed by the Department are those that are presently performed by OEP in disaster relief.

Mr. MALLARY. I think, perhaps, it would be well for someone who comes along later to clarify this point.

But the President's message does not designate, specifically, I do not believe, the role of GSA in the civil emergencies.

Mr. INK. I would suggest, if it is all right with the committee, that OEP, which will be testifying, can review with you the different elements that it has responsibility for, and I think it will be more clear. They can illustrate which particular problems will go to GSA and which go to HUD. There has been no change in plan.

Mr. MALLARY. I appreciate the statement by Mr. Malek this morning; it is fairly clear on that, and yet, there appears to be a slight conflict here.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman HOLIFIELD. Mr. Moorhead?

Mr. MOORHEAD. Mr. Chairman, instead of a question, a brief com

ment.

Hurricane Agnes, in my part of Pennsylvania, western Pennsylvania, did not cause severe damage, but the Susquehanna Valley area, Wilkes-Barre and the like, was severely hurt, and the people of that region do not think that the Department of HUD was very helpful. I would hope that you would review that particular incident, now that you are going to have even more extensive responsibilities, if, God forbid, we ever have a situation like that again.

Mr. MORLEY. Yes, Congressman. We learned a lot, I believe, from the entire Agnes disaster, which, as all of you know, was the most drastic, I guess, this country has endured in history in terms of the effects on people. We have conducted a series of reviews concerning our effort, that is, the Department's effort, in providing housing for almost 30,000 families that were left homeless as the result of Agnes. Of course, the great majority of those, as you point out, Congressman, were in the Wyoming Valley. Approximately 20,000 families were left homeless. We have instituted procedures in order to come to grips with a disaster as devastating as that. Up to that time, as you know, and up to the time of Agnes, the largest disaster this Department handled was that of Camille, providing disaster housing for approximately 5,000 homeless families. We quadrupled that in the Wyoming Valley alone, plus, at the same time, handling the disaster that was occasioned by Agnes in not only Pennsylvania but New York, West

Virginia, Maryland, the State of Florida, and, to some extent, Ohio, and we were working at that time on about nine disasters throughout the country, including that in Rapid City, S. Dak.

So, we learned a great deal.

We have improved our capacity significantly, and it was unfortunate that we had to have an Agnes to learn as much as we have learned. But, I think we have learned well.

Mr. MOORHEAD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman HOLIFIELD. Well, we will excuse you now, Mr. Morley. I understand that you want Mr. Lynn's statement to go in the record as prepared?

Mr. MORLEY. Yes. Thank you, sir.

(Secretary Lynn's prepared statement follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF JAMES T. LYNN, SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittees, I am pleased to submit this statement on the Administration's proposal in Reorganization Plan No. 1 to transfer the disaster relief functions of the Office of Emergency Preparedness to the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I will discuss only the major aspects of the transfer of these functions.

In incorporating the disaster relief functions of the OEP and the existing staff that now performs them into the Department of Housing and Urban Development, we intend to retain the existing basic organizational framework. The present components of the Office of Emergency Preparedness concerned with disaster programs will comprise the Office of Federal Disaster Assistance which will report directly to the Under Secretary and me. The staff of the regional offices concerned with disaster programs will be added to the HUD Regional Offices as separate units and will report directly to the HUD Regional Administrators. Current OEP Regional Directors will head the disaster assistance staffs in the office of the HUD Regional Administrators.

We have decided upon this method of organization to enable the incorporation of the Office of Emergency Preparedness functions and personnel into HUD with the greatest efficiency and the least possible amount of disruption. Under this organization, disaster relief operations would continue much in the same manner as presently practiced. All disaster relief functions now performed by the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness would be performed by me or under my direction and the functions performed by the Office of Emergency Preparedness Regional staff would be performed under the immediate direction of the HUD Regional Administrators.

Subject to our review, we intend to adopt the present OEP delegations and assignments of functions to other agencies and the agreements executed with private relief organizations.

The disaster relief functions now in HUD would bear the same relationship to the new disaster relief staff as they have to OEP. The lines of communication would simply be shorter.

In terms of overall efficiency it is most logical to transfer the disaster relief function to HUD. Such transfer is consistent with the past and present community development experience of the Department since HUD is responsible for implementing the Administration's goals in the fields of housing and urban planning and development. In addition, it would facilitate coordination between disaster relief activities and the National Flood Insurance Program which not only makes possible a partially prefunded disaster indemnity at substantially less cost than direct relief payments but also, through its prerequisite local recognition of flood (including hurricane) and mudslide hazards and adoption of appropriate local land-use and land-control measures, would serve to reduce future losses from floods the most expensive and prevalent of natural disaster occurrences. Also, the location of disaster assistance in HUD should afford added opportunities for achieving Departmental objectives on land use, hazard reduction, comprehensive planning, community development and housing goals. These are all responsibilities of HUD and thus coordination of efforts with these goals can best be achieved by assigning the relief functions as the President proposes. The transfer is also consistent with the President's proposal to create the Department of Community Development.