made during the call of the roll. There will be, may ask to be excused when his name is called. probably, fewer requests if made before the roll In bodies of this size members may be careless, call. At that time many members might and before the roll call is commenced many memask to be excused, while their names were being bers will not know what the question is and before called, who would not do it previous to that time. their name is called they will have ascertained This rule is in accordance with the practice which and may have reasons why they desire to be exhas prevailed for a number of years in the Assem-cused; and it is when their names are called in by of this State and that is the only recommend- the roll that they should have the right, it seems ation for its adoption. My own personal choice to me, to briefly state their reasons for asking to would be to see it stricken out altogether. be excused. I hope, therefore, the motion of the Mr. ALVORD-I am not aware that the state- gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that the ment last made by the gentleman is correct. It is rule may be amended so as to be substantially the not so far as regards my own experience as presid- same as the 7th rule of Assembly of last year will ing officer of the Assembly and as a member of it prevail. goes. I never had any other rule before me for my action, except that a person was entitled, on the call to give reasons for the excuse, if he should ask for it when his name was reached upon the roll call. For instance, if a person should be out when the roll call was commenced, and should gay but a moment, when he returns he would tad himself under the rule announced, bound adopted. to vote. He would have no time to make) Mr. ALVORD offered the further additional his excuse: or his attention may be called to amendment: add at the end thereof the followanother direction upon the announcement of ing: "But he shall not use for such purpose the roll call. It seems to me it will take more than five minutes of time." no more time when the roll is being called, when the person's name is reached, to make the excuse than it would at any other time. I, therefore, move as an amendment to restore the rule as it is in the Assembly, by striking out the word before."

The Secretary then read the amendment of Mr. Alvord as follows:

Mr. DEVELIN-I would ask the Chairman of the Committee on Rules whether the time which a person might occupy to give an excuse was limited by the Assembly rule. Under this ne a person might speak all day giving an e. Five minutes was the rule at the last

Mr. SHERMAN-There was in the Assembly le a limit of five minutes, and we have provided for the same thing in a somewhat different way. This rule provides that he shall state concisely, Fout argument, his excuse. I do not see how any member can occupy a whole day in stating condisely, and without argument, his request to be excused from voting.

"Strike out the words 'before the roll call shall be commenced,' and insert in lieu thereof tho words 'when his name is called on the roll.'

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared to be

Which was adopted.

Mr. SHERMAN-I think this rule may be still further improved by striking it out altogether. I make that motion.

Mr. GOULD-What will be the effect of that rule?-I should like to understand it? It is plain to me that a member cannot be excused from voting if this rule is stricken out. If this is so I hope it will not be stricken out.

Mr. ARCHER-The effect of striking out that rule will be to leave the rules as they were under the old parliamentary practice, by which every member was obliged to vote who was within the bar of the house when the question was stated by the Chair, unless he was personally interested in the result of the action. That has always been the rule so far as my acquaintance extends, until within a few years last past, and I have seen no good resulting from the adoption of this rule. On the contrary, I have seen much valuable time wasted in calling the roll and hearing excuses under this rule.

Mr. WEED-By rule 7 of the Assembly of last year, from which this is copied, a person could, when his name was called, ask to be excused and then state his reasons. I imagine that the committee upon rules omitted to state-perhaps they may have done so the words that allowed him to make the explanation at the time his name was talled, and with the permission of the Convention I will read the fore part of the rule, showing what words are out: "Any member requesting to be excused from voting, may make, when his name is called, or immediately after the roll shall have been called, and before the result shall be announced, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding five minutes." It seems to me that this rule should be limited to briefly stating the facts-stating the reasons. As long as he states facts and not arguments Mr. VEEDER-I understand the motion to be under this rule he may talk half of the day, if to strike out the rule. I do not think it is in order they are reasons why he asks to be excused to make a motion to amend it.

Mr. VEEDER-I would call the attention of

the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], who offers this motion to strike out the 7th rule, that that would be inconsistent with the provisions of the 6th rule, which provides that a member shall vote unless he be excused or be personally interested in the question. If there be power in the Convention to excuse a member from voting, there certainly should be some provision when he can make his excuse, and how much time he may be allowed to occupy in presenting that excuse.

Mr. SHERMAN-If my motion should be adopted it would be necessary to go back to the sixth rule and strike out the word "excuse" there. Mr. LAPHAM-I offer the following amendment.

It seems to me the position taken by the gentleman The PRESIDENT-In the opinion of the Chair from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] is proper that a person it takes precedence.

The Secretary then read the amendment of Mr. | debate. The question is new to me. I come in Lapham as follows: at the close of the debate. Then, under thi

Any member requesting to be excused from substitute if it is adopted, I am asked to say voting, may make, when his name is called, or im-under which King Benzonian-speak or die!mediately after the roll shall have been called, and I am unwilling that any vote of mine-or vot before the result shall have been announced, a of any gentleman here, should be dictated by mer brief statement of the reasons for making such leadership, or by any party considerations. I wish request, not exceeding five minutes in time, and the my vote to be intelligent; and if I have not heard question shall then be taken without debate, and an argument and do not understand the sub such request shall not be withdrawn without the ject I will not vote, and the consequence mus unanimous consent of the Convention." be, under the rule, that the sergeant-at-arms, suppose, will take me into custody.

Mr. TILDEN-It seems to me quite clear that the Assembly rule is much better than any of the amendments that have been proposed. It is simple, distinct, well-expressed and in conformity to all the recent practice of legislativo bodies. I hope this amendment will be adopted.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Lapham and it was declared carried.

Mr. LOEW-I observe that a great portion o the substitute offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], is already incorpor ated in the sixth rule, "Every member who shal be within the bar of the Convention when a ques tion shall be stated from the Chair, shall vot thereon unless he be excused or be personally in terested in the question."

Mr. GREELEY-I move this as a substitute, in accordance with the remarks of the gentleman Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following from Wayne, [Mr. Archer] which impressed me amendment to the amendment offered by Mr as exceedingly forcible.

Greeley.

"No member present in the Convention when Insert after the word "voted" the following the yeas and nays are ordered on any ques-"And that the doors and windows of the Cham tion shall leave the house till he shall have voted, ber be closed by the Sergeant-at-Arms, and the and no member so present shall be excused from members of the Convention be kept in close cus voting, unless he be personally interested in the tody whenever the yeas and nays are ordered decision. and until the call of the roll be completed." [Laughter].

I think that is the right rule, that every member shall vote who is here; that he shall not run out and shall not be excused. It will save time and give us a full vote. I ask this to be substituted for the rule as it now stands.

The question being put on the resolution o Mr. Van Campen, it was declared to be lost.

have not heard the debate, and therefore, having refused or neglected to perform one duty, I as that I may be allowed to neglect another." think it is the duty of gentlemen to be here and to hear debates on the question. It is the old par liamentary rule, that gentlemen ought to vote and I think that we ought to abide by it.

Mr. GREELEY-With very great respect for the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton,] who has Mr. E. A. BROWN-I ask for the experience made the objection to this rule, it seems to m of parliamentarians, if it be true as a principle of that he has proposed to make the neglect of on parliamentary law as stated by the gentleman duty the justification for the neglect of anothe from Wayne [Mr. Archer], that a legislative body duty. We are here to listen to debates. This is has not the power, if a member asks to be ex- a part of our duty. The gentleman says: cused from voting to exercise that power, and grant such excuse? It seems to me that it must be inherent in such a body as this, and any legislative body, to excuse for any cause any of its members from voting upon any question. And the object of such rule must be to limit debates that may arise during the call of the roll and the taking of the vote, and prevent debates upon that question of excuse by confining persons asking to be excused to a simple statement of the reasons upon which the request is based. So that if we have not that rule, if I am correct in my supposition, whenever a member asks to be excused, the debate is open to every member, and without limit any more than it is upon any other question; and the purpose of the rule must be, and the benefits growing out of it must be expected to limit such debate, and to restrict such discussion. I am in favor of substituting the Assembly rules.

Mr. CLINTON-That may be true, yet ther are a great variety of duties which are incumben upon ns. We are not merely here as members of the Convention; we have divers other relations There are duties even superior to my duty to be present here to listen to whatever may fall from the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] or any other gentleman who has the ability to enlighten me. I may have a friend who is sick an accident may happen to my wife, or something may require me to be absent during the debate and yet permit me to come in at the close of it It does not follow that I contemplate any neglec of my duty.

Mr. CLINTON-Beyond the excuse of interest in the question pending before the Convention, Mr. HALE--I hope the amendment of the gentle I can imagine one case in which it would be man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will no contrary to my conscience to vote. I wish that prevail. I submit that it is in violation of tha liberty preserved. I wish that every vote which amendment of the Constitution of the United I, or any other member may give, shall be con- States, the existence of which the gentleman from cientiously given, and with a knowledge of what Westchester is undoubtedly aware, which pro he is doing. Now, the substitute of the gentleman vides that neither slavery nor involuntary servi from Westchester, [Mr. Greeley] as I regard it, tude, except as a punishment for crime, shall puts a man in this position: I have not heard a be permitted in this country. I do not propose

that any rule shall be adopted by which members | found nothing in the rules authorizing it, and my of this Convention shall be held in involuntary object in offering this rule to be incorporated, is servitude during the time the roll is being called. to prevent this practice of closing the doors Mr. FULLER-I rise to a question of order. against members. I may be in error, but I wish The 6th rule has already been adopted in the Con-o put this matter to the test of the vote of the vention. The amendment of the gentleman from Convention. Westchester [Mr. Greeley] virtually repeals that rule, and that canuot be done except by reconsideration of the vote by which that rule was adopted.

Mr. LAPHAM-I rise to a question of order. The amendment proposed by the member from Kings [Mr. Bergen], does not relate to the conduct of persons or the government of this body. It refers to the duties of the Sergeant-at-Arms.

Mr. BERGEN-It refers to the privileges of members, and it is held to be one of the privileges of members to enter this hall unless excluded by The PRESIDENT-On further consideration the rules. The doors may be closed upon a call the chair is of the opinion that the motion of the of the House, as it may be done here. But gentleman from New York [Mr. Rogers,] is hardly I hold it to be the privilege of a member to come pertinent, in view of the present state of the ques-ia at any time unless excluded by the rules.

Mr. BERGEN-The object of this amendment is to have the doors open in the morning while the Chaplain is making his prayer. I have seen members, and I myself have been stopped and not allowed to enter the Chamber because the Chaplain was engaged at prayers. I do not know that this body is any more pious than the Congress of of the Committee, and is not to be considered the United States. Members of Congress are now, I think.

The Secretary then proceeded to read the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th rules, and no objection being made thereto, they were declared adopted.

allowed to enter the hall while the Chaplain is en- Mr. HARRIS-I hope the Convention will proraged at prayer. I don't know that we are any ceed to consider this now, as it has been inserted more pious than people are in our churches, and I here as a portion of the rules, and not improperly, believe that all churches are allowed to remain I think. Why not proceed to consider this portion open during prayers by the chaplain or parson- of the rules now? at any rate, I have never in my travels found a church door closed while prayers were going on. But here, I say, I have found the doors closed, and by whose authority I do not know. I have amendment.

Mr. SHERMAN-If it is the wish of the Con-king out all after the word "except," and to substi vention to proceed and consider this matter now, I see no objection to it. I simply mentioned that it was no part of the report of the Committee, and not to be considered as such now.

tute therefore the following:-"That the yeas and nays shall not be taken on a division." The object of that amendment is to get rid entirely of the "previous question" whenever it may be inMr. TILDEN-It occurs to me there is a prac- corporated, or any allusion made to it in any one tical difficulty in considering this question at the of the rules, and if the proposition be favorably present time The report made by my friend received by the Convention, it will be only one from Albany.[Mr. Harris] contains not merely the of a series of motions to strike out, wherever the constitution of these several committees, but an "previous question" occurs. I offer this amendorder of reference to these committees. That is ment for the purpose of testing the sense of the not contained in these rules, and could not well Convention in regard to the necessity and probe, because it would not be appropriate, as my priety of the adoption by this body of the prehonorable friend will see if he will observe the vious question, and from a conviction that it is first clause: "Standing Committees shall be not only unnecessary, but that it is unworthy the appointed by the President to consider and report character and beneath the dignity of this body severally upon the following subjects, and such to adopt it. It is well known to members that others as may be referred to them." The report which was made yesterday, provides that the several parts of the Constitution relating to these subjects shall be referred to these Committees, and I think it will be needful to amend this rule in order to effect that object. I suggest, therefore, that we better omit the consideration of this report at this time, and proceed with the rules.

The PRESIDENT—It will be omitted as a matter of course. It forms no part of the report, and only can come in by way of an amendment. Mr. ŠILVESTER-In the report of the committee on rules yesterday, there were several committees that were named in that report.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman that there is no question before the Convention.

that question has been entirely perverted from its original design and use, and has become simply an instrument for the suppression of debate. It was instituted originally by the British Parliament for the purpose of suppressing questions of a delicate character, which related to personages of high standing, and questions, the discussion of which might result in mischievous or unfortunate consequences, and when that question was put, a vote in the negative was always sought, and when that was obtained it suppressed the question, but to this day, in the British Parliament, it is not used for the purpose of suppressing debate. There are some instances in which that may be serviceable; it may be serviceable in cases where there are cliques or rings, who have certain schemes or measures which they want to press through a body, without ventilation or discussion. But Sir, there is no necessity for the rule in this

Mr. SILVESTER-I wish simply to inquire of the Chair, whether the committees that were re-body for that purpose, for it is to be presumed ported by the Committee on Rules, and which were contained in their report, are now to be considered by the Convention or not. They reported four committees which are not in the report this morning-the Committee on Privileges and Elections, the Committee on Printing, the Committee on Contingent Expenses, and the Committee on Engrossment and Enrollment.

Mr. SHERMAN-There were reported by the Committee on Rules four business committees, which have been accidentally omitted in the printing. They will be found in document No. which was laid before the Convention. They are-the Committee on privileges and elections; printing; contingent expenses, and engrossment and enrolment. These are the only committees reported by the committee on rules.

a

that no such cliques or rings exist here; and if there were such, they should neither receive aid from the rules, nor comfort from the body. It is sometimes perhaps necessary in legislative bodies, where there may be a factious minority, who seek to throw impediments in the way of legislation, but it is not necessary I apprehend in this body to provide for such case as that; there is no such factious minority here. Some things have been said in regard to majorities, or to the majority and the minority and to parties. I confess, sir, that such language has fallen unpleasantly upon my ear; they have seemed like words of ill omen. For the purposo of revising the organic law of the State, there is in this body no majority and no minority; there are no parties here; we are all republicns,. we are all democrats. We came here not for the purpose of framing an organic law for any party, or any sect, or any class, or any interest; but for the people of the State of New York in all their interests, vast and varied as they are, material and moral. I presume that none have come here with the view of influencing this body to do any such thing for a partizan purpose, and if they came with that view it would be the most consummate folly to attempt it, for in a country like ours, young, growing rapidly, and developing, where party issues and questions are changing and shifting like the sands of the shore, if Mr. SMITH-I move to amend rule 19th by stri- any should attempt to frame a constitution

The Secretary then proceeded to read the 16th rule.

Mr. DEVELIN-May I inquire whether that refers to the report made by my friend from Albany (Ms. Harris), as it says all reports of committees ?

The PRESIDENT-The Chair hardly thinks it does.

No objection being made to rule 16th, it was declared adopted.

The Secretary then proceeded to read the 17th and 18th rules, and no objection being made thereto, they were declared adopted.

The Secretary then read the 19th rule.

for partizan purposes, they might find, in and then that rule will allow the previous question a few revolutions of the political wheel, that they to be moved in Committee of the Whole, a provision had constructed or an instrument that might serve which never has existed before. I therefore subto crush them. It may be thought by some, that mit, we had better postpone the consideration of without the use of this question, debates may this rule now, because if it is retained we shall become tedious and prolix; I do not apprehend have to move to restore this provision. that; there are other rules, as has already Mr. SHERMAN-It strikes me the best mode been suggested by the gentleman from Rich- of proceedieg would be to pass over this rule mond [Mr. E. Brooks], which will meet that informally, or to postpone it, and take it up when difficulty. I, sir, came here for the purpose we come to the previous question in the 4th subof discussion, and I do not wish to sup- division of rule 23. press it; I desire to hear all that may be said upon all the grave and important questions that will come before us; and for one, I desire to hear especially from those who may differ from me upon any question which may arise, I desire to have a full amd free discussion, and to gather all the information and all the ideas I am able to, from all persons, not only from those within this Mr. SMITH offered the following amendment body but from without; and I have been thankful to strike out in the 4th sub-division the words to those gentlemen outside, who have taken so" For the previous question." much interest in this Convention, as to present us Mr. AXTELL-I hope the provision will be with their views upon the questions that may retained. As to the remarks of the gentleman here arise. I do not believe that any previous from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks,] as to what is question will be necessary, and I believe it will be more compatible with the dignity and character of this body to entirely eliminate it from the rules of the Convention.

Mr. SPENCER-I have no objection to that, and accept the suggestion of my friend. No further amendments being made thereto rule 19 was declared to be adopted.

Mr. SPENCER-I move to postpone the further consideration of this rule until after the Convention shall have acted upon rule 29.

The Secretary then read rule 20, 21 and 22, and there being no objection made thereto, they were declared to be adopted.

becoming this body to do, the body itself must decide. If this body shall retain the previous question, it will be becoming, and it will be dignified also. The argument against retaining the previous question, as I understand it, is, that it is not in the rules of the Senate of this State and not in the rules of the Senate of the United States. Mr. WEED-I suggest to the gentleman who I call the attention of the Convention to the made this motion, that the question may be taken fact that these are smaller bodies; but in bodies as well here, whether there is to be a previous of this size the previous question will be found question incorporated in the rules, as at any very convenient, and will contribute to the desother time. If the gentleman will cast his eye patch of business. I know that the British along the report he will see there are other rules House of Commons and Parliament has been cited that will have to be passed upon or postponed, as a body in which the previous question is not until the 29th rule is discussed. If this body used for the suppression of debate, but the British shall see fit to retain the previous question in this House of Commons is not a model so far as the rule, then these others may be passed without mode of conducting its debates is concerned; any motion being made upon them. If they shall not having the previous question, it has altogether see fit to strike it out, then the other rules may a more summary method of suppressing debate, be amended, as a matter of course, as we come to by turning the House of Commons into a bear them. garden, or menagerie, or something of that kind. I submit that the previous question will contribute to the dignity of this body and will facilitate the despatch of business.

Mr. HALE-It strikes me that the motion of the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer] should prevail, although the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] suggests that the question may as well be Mr. ARCHER-The majority of the Committee taken now, as to whether we shall have the pre-on Rules inserted the provision under consideravious question or not, still, as the previous question believing it was necessary, or that it might tion may be retained, if not in its present form, become necessary for the despatch of the business yet in a modified form, I think it would be the for which we are called together. In the Convensimpler way for us first to decide upon this impor- tion of 1846, when I first came here, I entertained tant proposition, when we consider the rule which the same opinion that has been expressed by directly provides for the previous question. It some gentleman upon the floor, that the previous strikes me that will be the simpler form of getting question was entirely unnecessary to any such body and would be improper; but the then majoMr. VEEDER-I think the consideration of rity inserted it and it was practiced before the this previous question should be postponed. The Convention closed. I was obliged to yield and Convention will observe, if we should strike out to admit to the friends who told me in the outset this provision here, in regard to the previous that I was wrong, that I was in error with regard question, and should still retain subsequently the to it, and I found that the practical workings right to move the previous question, then under of the rule were salutary. We can readily conthat rule it would be the privilege of any member ceive that in a body as large as this, it may become of the Convention to move the previous question absolutely necessary for us to limit debate. There in Committee of the Whole. If we strike it out is such a thing as exhausting a subject, and bere, still it may be retained as a part of the pro- after all has been said that may be pertinently vision of the rule to move tho previous question, said upon a subject, it is due to our con

at is