ther it would be possible to prohibit be ready to protect harmless people public meetings in Hyde Park. The processions were generally arranged with à due regard to order, and the leaders of such demonstrations, as a rule, informed the Commissioners of Police of the intended line of march, and asked that adequate measures might be taken to insure order. Steps of this kind had been taken by the people who called the meeting in Trafalgar Square on the 8th instant. Although he was of opinion that meetings in the Park and other large open spaces could not be prevented, he thought that attention might well be turned to the question whether demonstrations should be permitted in Trafalgar Square, were meetings were frequently held, to the great inconvenience of the public, with the special object of overawing the Houses of Parliament. If meetings were held, he agreed that steps should be taken to minimize the public danger and inconvenience as much as possible.

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK said, he held that the public had a right to be protected against such dangers as were incurred through the agglomeration of immense masses of people in the neighbourhood of places like Trafalgar Square, where shops were open, and people were employed in their ordinary daily avocations, and where there was a congestion of traffic. It was remarkable that the direction in which the flow of people set after meetings in Trafalgar Square was generally that of Whitehall. Colonel Pearson had stated before Mr. Childers's Committee that the flow of the crowd from such meetings was very largely down Whitehall, and that he had often been obliged to block Whitehall with police in order to prevent the crowd from surging down that thoroughfare. It should be remembered that the Public Offices and Houses of Parliament were in this direction, and ought not to be thus exposed. Anyone who happened to be in Hyde Park on Sunday last could see that respectable people were driven out of the Park, that at every 10 yards peaceable citizens were confronted by policemen, and that the place had all the appearance of being in state of seige. Was it decent that a state of things should exist which rendered it necessary that soldiers should be confined to barracks on the Sunday, and that every policeman not on duty should remain at home or at the headquarters of his district, in order to Lord Aberdare

against others who chose to resort to the Park for purposes of no public utility? The Legislature had decided that nominations at elections should no longer take place in the open air in consequence of the disturbances that used to accompany the proceedings, and it would be well to consider whether the precedent might not be applied to the occasions to which the debate referred. Such great masses of people as assembled in these cases could not hear what the orator said, and there was always turmoil and noise which were opposed to reasonable discussion. In Trafalgar Square on the 8th instant, the respectable working men who met to ventilate their grievances were opposed by a mob of a totally different character, and a collision was expected. The danger that he feared was not revolution; but that one day in the Park or Square two masses of men of opposite views would come into conflict, and that a bloody massacre might ensue. What would be said if anywhere out of London such demonstrations were organized in one town and were extended to another town by processions passing from one to the other? Yet the people taking part in the demonstrations in Hyde Park did not belong to the neighbourhood of the Parks, but they came from distant parts of London, and their object was to strike terror into the people who lived or occupied property about the Parks. In consequence of the terror produced by what happened in London on the Monday night, on the Tuesday 10 miles of shops were shut up, and all business was brought to a standstill. It was impossible with the best police arrangements to prevent disturbances and panic unless you could so dispose of and use your police as to prevent rioters proceeding collectively in certain directions in which they would be disposed to commit injuries. It was quite possible to deal with this matter without interfering with the right of public meetings; nobody wished to do that. There were plenty of places where people could hold meetings if they desired to do so, and where addresses could be delivered with the prospect of the speaker being listened to and heard. There were such places that were not surrounded by dense populations, and where danger would not attend the holding of an out-door meeting. If we allowed persons from all

parts of London to assemble in Trafalgar Square and in the Parks, and this was especially true in reference to Sunday, we should irritate the police to the last degree, and if a collision did occur it would be impossible that the police should not remember how they had been harassed by these gatherings. We should also alienate the soldiers, on whom, in the last resort, we must rely, by shutting them in their barracks and depriving them of necessary recreation, which was as essential to them as to any other part of the community.

he has agreed to present respecting "Boycotting and other outrages," give such informament officials in Ireland, or can be obtained by tion as may be in the possession of the Governthem with reference to cases of trials of farmers and others by National League local courts, and the infliction of fines and sentences by those tribunals; and, also any cases of appeals from Court in Dublin for confirmation or revision ?" these courts to the Superior National League The noble Earl said, that the Question had reference to a state of things which prevailed at the present moment in Ireland of the most alarming and dangerous character, and which it was necessary LORD THURLOW said, that the noble some steps should be taken to deal with, Lord who had asked the Question would if any semblance of law and order was appreciate the importance of it as much to obtain in that country. From the as anyone, and would especially appre-information at his disposal, and at the ciate the difficulty of entering upon many

considerations that affected it at the

pre

sent time. In these circumstances, he trusted their Lordships would excuse him if he replied as concisely as he could to the exact terms of the Question. He had, therefore, to state, on the part of the Home Office, that it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government, at the present moment, to declare illegal all public meetings and all processions in the Squares and Parks on Sundays. It might not, however, be inappropriate if he reminded their Lordships that steps were about to be taken with a view, if possible, to improve the hitherto existing arrangements which governed these proceedings; but pending the contemplated inquiry, and the decision at which the Home Office might arrive, it would, perhaps, be wise on the part of the public, and even, perhaps, of Parliament, to refrain from further discussisn. LORD LAMINGTON said, that, in consequence of the unsatisfactory reply which had been given on behalf of the Government, he should certainly, in due time, bring the question before their Lordships again, and take their opinion upon it.

IRELAND-THE NATIONAL LEAGUE

LOCAL COURTS.-QUESTION.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK said, in the unavoidable absence of Lord Castletown, who had been obliged to leave for Ireland last night, he had to ask the Question which stood on the Paper in the name of the noble Lord. The Question was as follows:

"To ask the Lord President of the Council, Whether he will, in addition to the information

disposal of his noble Friend who was to have asked the Question, it appeared that National League Courts not only existed and flourished in Ireland, but that the decrees and decisions of these Courts were obeyed and enforced, while the decisions of Her Majesty's Courts were not enforced at all. He (the Earl of Limerick) would not trouble the House at any great length with any quotations to prove the existence of these Courts, nor was it necessary that The Irish newspapers he should do so. were full of instances of inquiries held by branches of the League; and it was not at all necessary for him to go into them at any length. He would only take one or two cases; and he would ask that the Government should, at least, actively inquire as to the extent to which these Courts existed and the nature of the operations, and put an effective stop to the further spread of acts of illegality. In one case he found that, on November 19th, 1885, a meeting was held in a Roman Catholic chapel, and the statement of the parish priest was heard against a man stated to be a landgrabber. The result was that a fine of £30 was imposed. In the town of Drumcollagher the action of a tailor in supplying a suit of clothes to a man who was at enmity with the League, was brought forward; but as the tailor had died no further action was taken. In another case he found reported in the papers-no names were given-that a man who had taken a farm was summoned to the League Court and ordered to pay £600 to the former tenant or surrender the farm. If such cases as these were true, it went to show that there

were Courts in Ireland hearing cases and a state of things which must be and enforcing fines and penalties. How remedied. I do not propose now to was this done? It was done by an ex-state-I have told your Lordships betreme and monstrous system of "Boy- fore that I am unable to state-the cotting," accompanied in many cases by policy by which Her Majesty's Governdreadful consequences to the victims of the ment have to meet the question of system. This system was not confined social order in Ireland, and the other to rich or poor in particular-more fre- matters which are committed to them. quently, indeed, it was the poor who I cannot go into that. With regard to suffered from it. He asked the Ques- the Notice on the Paper, I regret that tion with great confidence in the noble it is not possible for the Government Earl opposite (Earl Spencer), for he though they are anxious to furnish could bear willing testimony to the fact as much information to the House and that when he was Lord Lieutenant he the public on this subject as they can took the strongest means to put down all these illegalities. It was with the greatest pleasure he (the Earl of Limerick) said that there was no Member of the House who would bear more willing evidence to the manner in which the noble Earl had discharged his duties as Viceroy with impartiality, firmness, and fairness. He (the Earl of Limerick) then quoted from the charge of a County Court Judge in Ireland, who said that he did not think that any honest man could say that the country was in a state of tranquillity, or that obedience to the law was observed. On the contrary, the law and government of the country were never held in greater contempt than at present. The Government was superseded by a much more powerful Government; and if that were so, it was impossible that he could compliment them, however much he would wish to do so, on the state of order which prevailed.

THE EARL OF EGMONT said, that one of the cases mentioned had occurred on his property. A tenant took a farm in 1881; he spent a good deal of money upon it, and improved it; and in 1885 the League ordered him to pay £600 to the former tenant, who had been evicted. He understood that the present holder had already paid £500.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER) said: I do not propose to enter into a discussion of the subject which the noble Earl has introduced. I readily admit the very grave condition of affairs to which allusion has been made, and which shows that a very unfortunate state of things has existed during the last seven months in Ireland. There is no doubt that the fact that these Land Courts are held, and that they exercise these functions, if, as I believe, it is true that they do, shows a very unfortuate state of things, The Earl of Limerick

to give any Return of this character that would be satisfactory, or which it would conduce to the public interest to give. These Land Courts, as they are called, are held in private houses, and sometimes, I believe, as the noble Earl mentioned, they are held in Roman Catholic chapels; but, being held in private, we have no means of getting any information about them excepting reports which were brought to the Government in a confidential manner. Those reports could not be presented to Parliament. There are obvious and numerous reasons why they could not be made public. It is, therefore, quite out of the power of the Government to grant these Returns, although they would be exceedingly glad if they could to furnish any information on the subject. The other night, when the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cranbrook) asked for a Return, I stated that the Government would most willingly give it, and that Return is being prepared as quickly as possible. That Return relates to "Boycotting" and intimidation; but it does not touch these particular cases of the Land Courts, as to which, for the reasons I have indicated, it would be impossible for the Government to produce satisfactory information.

LORD ASHBOURNE said, that though the noble Earl had stated that he could not, without detriment to the public interest, supply a technical Return as to these Courts asked for by his noble Friend (the Earl of Limerick), he (Lord Ashbourne) did think that it would have been possible for the noble Earl (Earl Spencer), without detriment to the public interest, to have said something more than he did in the observations he had made. What was the state of facts which was practically and almost in terms admitted now not only to have

He

existed during the last seven months; | that they would take such resolute steps but he would go further, and say during as might be in their power to note what many more months of the noble Earl's went on in Ireland, and to procure such own tenure of Office as Viceroy, and evidence as might be in their power; which existed now in greater intensity and that when they had procured that than at any former time-what was the evidence no exertion would be wanting to state of facts admittedly in existence? put down a state of facts which was as That there were Courts held under the perilous as it was discreditable to the sanction of the National League, with a Empire. [Earl SPENCER assented.] A procedure of their own and an appellate gesture could not be reported; but he system of their own, administered under thought he was doing nothing disthe sanction of the League, administered respectful to their Lordships when he with the sanctions of terror and intimi- translated the nods and gestures of the dation. The purpose of such Courts was noble Earl (Earl Spencer) as meaning to supersede, degrade, and bring into con- that they-the present Governmenttempt the administration of the Queen's would anxiously watch the process and law. That was the state of facts now procedure by which these Courts now admitted by the responsible Minister of sought to bring the Queen's law into the Crown to be the existing state of contempt, and that whenever they could affairs in Ireland, and to have been procure evidence—and no efforts would the state of affairs in Ireland for be wanting on their part to procure the last seven months. The late Go- evidence that no exertions would be vernment were quite aware of the great wanting to bring to punishment and difficulty which the noble Earl had stated trial those who in these Courts brought of obtaining evidence in regard to what into disrepute the whole administration took place at those meetings; and that of the Government in Ireland. might have been one of the very powerful ventured thus to put into plain English considerations presented to Parliament what he took to be the meaning of by the late Government to induce it the applause and gesture of the noble to supersede the ordinary law so as to Earl opposite; and if he (Lord Ashenable them to grapple with the state of bourne) laboured under a misconception, things, and with a procedure so insidious it was due not only to himself, but to and so destructive to the administration their Lordships' House, that he should of the authority of the law in Ireland. be publicly corrected, so that there But what was the outcome of the state- should be a perfect understanding as ment of the noble Earl? The noble to every particular about so grave a Earl admitted the great evil that existed. matter. He would be taken to admit its deadly peril to the Queen's Sovereignty and to respect for the law; and he further practically avowed that in that position of affairs the Government were unable to do anything, even by way of a public announcement, to restore confidence in the law and the assertion of the law. It was easy to say that the Govern-vernment feel the responsibility resting ment were unable to make a full announcement of their policy, and that they were not to expect it from them for four or five weeks to come; but that was a question, not of policy, but of administering the existing law, so as to insure respect for the Queen's authority and something like decent respect for the Queen's law. At all events, he thought they were entitled to some statement from those who represented the existing Government that they were not only alive to the gravity of the situation which they acknowledged existed, but VOL. CCCII. [THIRD SERIES.]

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR

THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE): I have not the slightest hesitation in endorsing by words what the noble and learned Lord (Lord Ashbourne) gathers from the gesture of my noble Friend (Earl Spencer) who was some time ago Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The Go

upon them, and deem it necessary to watch in the most attentive manner all the events going on in Ireland; and they are devoting themselves to considering the very best mode of dealing, among other subjects, with disorder and disrespect for the law. But I must say that the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Ashbourne) is one of the last persons who should make an attack on the Government. He has said that "Boycotting" existed during the Viceroyalty of my noble Friend near me. Nobody denied that some "Boycotting" did

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