MR. M'CULLOCH: I am very glad to be able to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland on the spirit which has pervaded the introduction of this measure. But the Bill is by no means clear of defects. I think there is a want of scope in locality, and in some other of the provisions the right hon. Gentleman indicatedfor instance, in the distinction drawn between arable and pasture land; but I will say that he laid down a principle which this House cannot too widely endorse-namely, that it is impolitic to take public money for the purpose of buying land for any section of the community. That is, I think, to more advanced Liberals the most valuable of principles that have been held by this House. There was one proposition, however, which the right hon. Gentleman asked the House to affirm, to which, on my part, I can give no assent-that the landlords in Scotland have in all cases been considerate and wise. I maintain that the rents have been screwed up by legal machinery, and that they have had, by the very na

boats have to be drawn up on the beach, | everyone who has a deer forest should and, of course, a boat that can be used fence it properly so as to prevent the in that way is not one that can with- deer trespassing. I am glad the Gostand rough weather and proceed with vernment are going to help these people safety to the more distant fishing in regard to fishing, as I am sure assistgrounds. The Piers and Harbours ance granted in that direction will be Committee, on the testimony they re- one of the most important ameliorations ceived, thought that money should not possible. be spent by way of advance for harbours that are of mere local importance-that unless they are of national importance advances should not be made. No doubt, however, there are provisions by which it is possible to obtain loans for these local harbours; but then, of course, the main difficulty in many of the Islands and Highlands would be to find persons to take on themselves the liability for the expenditure. That matter, however, has not been overlooked, because within the last few years we have made some provision under which one harbour at least has been made, the surplus of the herring fishing brand fees having been taken in towards the expense. I should rejoice if any other funds were put at the disposal of those concerned in this matter in Scotland. I do not think at present it is possible to do any more than take these herring brand fees; there has not appeared any disposition that any more should be done. I do not think any other points were referred to by way of question. I am not going into the details of the Bill, which, when it is before hon. Mem-ture of the land itself, a monopoly. The bers, they will have an opportunity of studying for themselves. Something has been said as to when it will be possible to take the second reading. It will be a day or two before it will be in the hands of Members; therefore, probably it will be to the convenience of the House that it should be read a second time about 10 days hence.

MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH: Will it be put down as the first Order of the Day?

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR): I shall only be too glad to get as good a place as possible for the second reading among the Orders.

THE MARQUESS OF STAFFORD: I desire to explain that the Local Authority referred to in the Bill I have introduced is meant to be the Local Authority to be appointed under the Local Government scheme, and not the Commissioners of Supply. With reference to the question of keeping deer, my intention is that The Lord Advocate

thin end of the wedge is now put in, and I think some of the principles of tenant right will have to be extended to every section of tenants in Scotland. Why? Because the rents now are such that the tenants cannot pay them out of the surplus after the charges of production have been met. A remission of rents is, consequently, as necessary to large tenants as to the crofters; and at the proper time I shall move an Amendment to the effect that the same principle which is applicable to the crofters should be extended to those who have, in consequence of laws unjust and impolitic, been forced into paying more than the natural rent of the land, and into positions which are just as full of vicissitudes as that of the crofters. When this measure is again brought up, I think we should go further and do something for those who have entered into long leases under circumstances that do not at this moment continue. I

Motion made, and Question proposed, | one with experience of the working of "That a Select Committee be appointed to the existing law and of the condition of inquire into and report upon the condition of the River Lea, must see that the law the River Lea, and to make such recommenda- requires considerable amendment. tions as may appear necessary."-(Mr. Attorney General.)

MR. HASTINGS: It is rather unfortunate that the subject actually referred to this Committee is so restricted. I am aware that the River Lea is in a bad condition, and that it is urgent that something should be done; but I think there are other rivers which require to have something done to them. The river that flows through my own county

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH: It would be ungracious and unreasonable to complain of the statement of the Attorney General being short and unsatisfactory. At the same time, I would venture to remark that, according to my experience, the duties of a Select Committee on a particular subject are facilitated very-the River Severn-is being more and much if something like guidance and light is given to them in the discussion accompanying the Motion for their appointment. This appointment is in connection with the River Lea. I should like very well to see the provisions of the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act examined by a Committee, especially in connection with such an important matter as it proposed to refer to this Committee. However, at present, I only wish to guard myself in this way by saying that whenever a subject is brought before a Select Committee without any particular guidance on the part of the House, there is apt to be a little confusion or delay, and perhaps some unsatisfactory result, which might have been prevented by more full and complete discussion.

SIR LEWIS PELLY: I would venture to occupy the time of the House for one moment on this subject. I submit that it is most desirable that this Committee should be appointed. I represent the Division of Hackney through which the River Lea takes part of its course, and I have been communicated with by my constituents on the subject of the condition of the stream. I also have had the honour of presenting a Petition on the subject.

more polluted every year by the amount of sewage poured into it. It seems to me, therefore, that the Committee should not be entirely restricted to the Lea. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. SclaterBooth) must be well aware that while the Act, the passage of which he facilitated, is excellent, so far as its provisions go, there is this great defect in the state of the law-that it is exceedingly difficult to put it in force. What is wanted is something to enable the law to be put in force, and if the hon. and learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) should be able to throw some light on that question, so far as all rivers are concerned, I, for one, should be glad. Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL PROVIDENT INSURANCE.

Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the best system of National Provident Insurance against Pauperism."—(Sir Herbert Maxwell.)

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS.

Ordered, That the Select Committee on Edu

cational Endowments do consist of Seventeen
Members-Committee nominated of,-Mr. H.
G. ALLEN, Mr. L. L. COHEN, Mr. JESSE COL-
LINGS, Mr. COZENS-HARDY, Mr. DILLON, Mr.
J. E. ELLIS, Lord FRANCIS HERVEY, Mr. STAVE-
LEY HILL, Sir HENRY HOLLAND, Mr. ILLING-
WORTH, Mr. COURTNEY KENNY, Mr. MASKE-
LYNE, Mr. C. S. PARKER, Sir LYON PLAYFAIR,
Mr. F. S. POWELL, Mr. STANHOPE, and Mr. J.
G. TALBOT, with power to send for persons,
papers, and records.

Ordered, That Five be the quorum.-(Sir Lyon
Playfair.)

1

WATERWORKS (RATING) BILL.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Mr. CHARLES RUSSELL): I wish to say, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sclater-Booth), that I am obliged to him for not being hard on me for my reticence, as the Motion was unopposed. I desired to save the House the trouble On Motion of Mr. Gerald Balfour, Bill to of listening to a statement hardly neces- amend the Law relating to Waterworks Unsary under the circumstances. I trust dertakings belonging to Local Authorities, that this Committee may have the bene-ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gerald Balfour, Mr. Dodds, Mr. Coddington, Sir H. fit of the services of the right hon. Gen- Roscoe, Mr. Jackson, and Mr. Picton. tleman, who took such an important part Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 117.] in the legislation on the subject, and in House adjourned at half after connection with the Bill of 1876. AnyOne o'clock,

stances in vain, for employmont in different branches of the Public Service. The majority of these officers were men who were still capable of doing good service to the country or to the Colonies, though they had been obliged to resign their appointments in consequence of the Rules of the Service. Out of 114 officers who had applied for some kind of work, the average age was 50; among those who had been compulsorily retired in the Army alone there were 280 officers of various ages, ranging from 41 to 60. When the country considered the amount

COLONIES-IMPERIAL AND COLONIAL of useful public work which could be

got out of men in other professions between those ages, it must seem absurd that the taxpayers should be willing to pay these men, in the shape of pensions, for doing nothing-for living in compulsory idleness. At the present time it was almost impossible for officers of the rank of Major General, Colonel, Admiral, or Captain of the Navy, to obtain employment in the Civil Services; but there was a large field of employment open to them in the Colonies, and there they were very largely needed. The men were only willing to obtain employment; but when they applied at the different Offices for an engagement they were told that they could not be employed because it was against public feeling to employ men of their rank, even although they were competent to do the work required. In that connection, he would refer to the fact that Sir Cooper Key had been retired in the prime of life; that Admiral Sir John Hay was retired 10 years ago— and, since his retirement, had served his country in Parliament, when he was well able to serve it in another

and to ask, whether Her Majesty's Government intend to propose to the Colonial Governments any scheme by which the Naval and Military Forces of this country and of the Colonies may be made interchangeable for the purposes of Imperial or Colonial defence, or by which, if deemed preferable, the services of officers and men may become available for the protection of the Colonies and their commerce without detriment to their prospects in the Imperial Navy and Army? pointed out that this Motion had been some considerable time before their Lordships and the public. Growing importance had been attached to the subject every year, and the de-way- both men being in the full sirableness of associating ourselves with the Colonies and they with us for the purposes not only of Colonial, but of mutual defence had been gradually recognized. Any scheme of this kind was calculated to be beneficial, not only to this country and the Colonies, but to the officers of both Services and the taxpayers as well. He had recently made inquiries as to the number of officers in both Services who were compulsorily retired, and who had expressed their willingness to serve in the Colonies. After a close investigation he had found that a very large number of military and naval officers had applied, in most inVOL. CCCII. (THIRD SERIES.]

vigour of mind and body; that Sir R. Stopford conducted operations with great success at the age of 73; and that Sir W. Parker was employed in China after he had attained the age of 60. At a time when the House of Commons was carefully scrutinizing the Pension List, it was advisable, he thought, to point out that the Pension List of the officers on retired pay in the Army alone amounted to £1,300,000. Before the abolition of purchase that Pension List did not cost the country more than £60,000. While they were clearing the list in order to promote young officers they were removing able men, some of

2 X

whom were more fitted by experience to | a general statement showing the Army discharge the duties required than those Expenditure under certain heads in the who received promotion. He, therefore, Colonies. With some limit of date the asked the Government whether the time War Office and the Admiralty could had not come when, considering the supply a Return of the amount of ships, strong opinion expressed in many guns, and stores supplied to the large quarters out-of-doors, they might form responsible Colonies, distinguishing some real and tangible scheme which what were given and were paid for. the Colonists could accept, and which They are accustomed to pay for what would be for the advantage of all? The they want, and the large Colonial Goopinions he had expressed were not the vernments would object to applications vague opinions of the public outside, in formá pauperis. The High Commisbut such men as Mr. Forster and the sioner for Canada and the Agent Gene Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ral for Victoria have drawn the attention (the Earl of Rosebery) had expressed of the Secretary of State to some of the views to a similar effect. He did arrangements under which officers of not think a more patriotic object could the Army and Navy are lent to Colonial be urged on the attention of the coun- Governments. A Committee was accordtry, or that there was one more de-ingly appointed to consider the subject, serving the attention of any Government which did not seek popularity, but which was desirous of strengthening the military and naval defences of the Empire. Address for

"Returns of the number of naval and military officers now employed in the service of the Colonies by the permission of the Board of Admiralty and of the War Office; of officers who have, in addition to the above, applied for permission so to serve; of assistance given to the Colonial Governments in ships, guns, or other military stores."-(The Viscount Sidmouth.)

in conference with the Agents General. The Report of the Committee has been received, and Her Majesty's Government hope shortly to communicate their view to the Governments interested in the question.

THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: I am glad this subject has been brought forward, and I am pleased to hear the answer given by the noble Earl (Earl Granville), for there is no subject of more importance to the general interests of the Empire. There has been a recent THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR opportunity of seeing what the Colonies THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE): I could do. They came forward in a entirely agree with the noble Viscount most handsome and proper manner, and as to the great interest of the subject on evinced not only an excellent spirit, but which he has put Questions. The sub- also produced a very good result in ject is one which applies to other placing their forces at the disposal of the Departments besides that of the Colonial Crown. I cannot help thinking, thereDepartment; but I can give an answer fore, that in the opinion of your Lordto the Questions he has put. The Re-ships every facility should be given for turn of the number of naval and military officers now employed in the service of the Colonies by the permission of the Board of Admiralty can be given. The number of officers who have, in addition to the above, applied for permission so to serve cannot be given. No record is kept of the unsuccessful applications for particular vacancies. With regard to the assistance given to the Colonial Governments in ships, guns, or other military stores, the noble Viscount has specified no time. It would be useless to go into ancient history on this subject-e.g., as to what was left in New Zealand when the Imperial troops were finally withdrawn many years ago. The Parliamentary Return issued by the War Office last year (Army, Colonies, No. 69 of 1885) gives

Viscount Sidmouth

improvement in that direction; and depend upon it this is not only a very valuable object in sentiment, but it will also be of immense importance to us to know that the distant parts of our great Empire have reliable forces to enable them to take care of themselves. If we have large Possessions to defend, we must have large forces to undertake that defence, and the possession of such a Colonial Force is, besides, of great economical value. In order to facilitate that state of matters there is no doubt of the importance of the view urged by the noble Viscount (Viscount Sidmouth). It so happens that there is considerable difficulty in finding employment for compulsorily retired officers. What the Colonies want is officers. The Colonial