porter of the Liberal Party fulfilling the | pearance, and the way in which he promise of bringing forward a question seemed to be overweighted with a sense connected with the land, and advocating of responsibility, rendered his appearState loans at an easy rate of interest ance distressing to the last degree. The for improving the cultivation of the noble Lord has referred to my hon. land, while the hon. Member for Ipswich Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. advocated loans for another class of the Jesse Collings) sitting pensively upon agricultural population. But the Chan- the Treasury Bench; but I must say cellor of the Exchequer, in the name of that the tinge of melancholy which the Government, absolutely refuses to overshadowed the countenance of the have anything whatever to do with the noble Lord when he was called upon to advancing of a State loan, except at a assume an attitude of responsibility cerruinous rate, for that particular class of tainly did not sit happily upon him. the agricultural population which the The noble Lord has twitted the Liberal Liberal Member for the Lichfield Divi- Party with want of cohesion, and the sion of Staffordshire has taken under Government with want of unanimity; his protection. And yet we are told that but he cannot have listened to the speech the Liberal Party are anxious to re- made by one of his own supporters, invigorate and restore prosperity to the who, speaking immediately above him, agricultural population. I cannot ima- doubted the wisdom and advantage of gine a more melancholy divergence of these loans, and expressed his belief opinion ever exhibited by a Government that the landlords would not be willing before upon a subject which is probably to ask for or accept them. Certainly, one of the largest which can possibly then, the disunion on this side of the come before the House of Commons. I House is fully matched by the disunion would appeal, therefore, to the hon. on the other. The noble Lord charges Member for Ipswich, whom I see sitting the Chancellor of the Exchequer with there on the Bench opposite in so very ignorance of the terms on which these pensive an attitude, to seize the oppor- loans have been granted; but the noble tunity for enlightening the House with Lord has himself shown that he knows his views on the question which has nothing about these loans at all. He rebeen raised by the hon. Member for the ferred to the loan made to the Irish landLichfield Division of Staffordshire. I lords. But that was done by a Conserhave a good reason for appealing to the vative Administration. It is true the hon. Member for Ipswich on this occa- rate of interest, after the Sinking Fund sion, because both with regard to the was provided for, was not more than 1 question which arose in the last Parlia- per cent. But let me draw attention to ment as to medical relief in connection the fact that when the subject of that with enfranchisement and on the subject loan and its profligacy were brought of allotments for the agricultural la- under consideration there was not one bourer the hon. Member has undoubt- of the Irish Members who were identiedly led the Liberal Party. And he has fied with the tenant's interest who did been supported by the Chancellor of the not look upon the loan as of no advanExchequer and the Prime Minister in tage whatever to the Irish tenant. the lead which he gave to the Liberal regard the appeal now made by the hon. Party. It would be cruel now, when no Member for the Lichfield Division of Party interest can possibly be involved, Staffordshire as the last cry of a decayed and when the House is anxious to arrive and expiring interest in the country. The at a practical conclusion, if the hon. noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) Member for Ipswich, in the face of such endeavoured to strengthen the case of disunion, is to leave the House to-night the hon. Baronet by attempting to draw without any guidance. an analogy between it and that of the hon. Member for Ipswich. It is quite true that the case of the agricultural labourer and of the landlord are analogous in one respect-that both are in a distressed condition; but the noble Lord forgot to establish this distinction-that while the landlords are the drones on the land, the agricultural labourer is

MR. ILLINGWORTH: The House will be glad to congratulate the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) on the recovery of his old tone. For myself, I felt nothing but the purest pity for him when he was sitting on the Treasury Bench, because then he was only the shadow of himself; and really his ap

I

miserable, wretched, and impoverished, | Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William as the noble Lord described him, be- Harcourt) has pointed out to us that if cause every obstacle has been thrown in the landlords can afford to pay 6 per his way. I regret that we have these cent for loans which are repayable in 22 two melancholy extremes of the agricul- years, there are societies and means, tural interest so prominently before us. besides going to the Treasury, through Their position is not only before the which these loans may be obtained. House, but it is realized by the country, The Chancellor of the Exchequer from the dire necessities of the case. doubted, as he might well doubt, the What has had such evil effect on agri- words of the noble Lord opposite culture has been the mischievous Land (Lord Randolph Churchill), and said Laws, which have placed such tyrannical that in the case of the majority of power in the hands of an idle class, and landlords they were very unwilling to have led to widespread impoverishment lay out money borrowed at this extravaand misery to other classes. I have a gant rate on their estates. But if they great deal of sympathy with the landlord are willing, let them proceed as all in class of this country, in the same way as this country in need of money are obliged I suppose some sympathy was felt for to do-let them go to the lenders. Let it the slave-holding class in the evil days be understood that the State has no when slavery was recognized in this money to lend, and that if it had it must country. Both have been the victims of get money out of the taxpayers' purse an evil and mischievous system. But, for the purpose, which would be better Mr. Speaker, there is only one remedy employed otherwise. I say that we, who for the difficulties of that class, and it are called upon to be the guardians of was commented upon by the hon. and the public purse, ought to resist all gallant Member for Buckingham (Cap- applications of this kind by a class tain Verney). If they are only the nomi- which has hitherto been the most powernal owners of the land; if they have not ful in the State, and that if we are to a farthing left; if they cannot relieve set aside the rules of economy it ought themselves from their embarrassments; to be in the interest of those who have if selling one-half of their estates will been worsted by what Parliament has not enable them to free themselves from done in order to give them a better start the embarrassments of the other half, in the struggle for an improvement of let them do what better people of every their condition. industry in the land have been compelled to do from all ages. Why, Sir, nothing is more common than to find men who have struggled against fate obliged to succumb; and who, after offering what they have to their creditors, have gone down to the bottom of the social ladder. I should be sorry that the landlord interest should be obliged to submit to such an ordeal; but why should Parliament be asked to make every sack stand on end? If Parliament has given its almost exclusive concern to the landlord class for the last five centuries, is it too much to give now a very plain intimation to all interested that the future of this Parliament will be to concern itself, not with the relief of the landlord class, but in order to do something on behalf of this sickly interest of agriculture? I can imagine the agricultural interest thriving, although the landlord class may decay; but I cannot understand that the agriculturist should thrive if we are to go out of our way to sustain an idle class. The Mr. Illingworth

MR. HANDEL COSSHAM: Sir, there is one advantage in the noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) having come to the rescue of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the present occasion, because we have had from the noble Lord a very distinct avowal that the late Government were turned out of Office on the question of land, and not, as it is sometimes said, on the Irish Question. I am very glad that we have extracted from the noble Lord that very plain statement. The fact is, however, that the Party to which the noble Lord belongs has got from one side of the House to the other. When the noble Lord spoke of the risible attitude of Her Majesty's Government, I could not help thinking that there was a very risible attitude on the part of the late Government-that is to say, they came into power on a promise made to a Party whom, when they got into power, they rewarded with a promise of coercion. That is a risible attitude; and in connection

with it no one has assumed a more | I do not at this hour want to enter into risible one than the noble Lord himself. this subject at great length, although The noble Lord was good enough to re- it is of the greatest interest to my conmind the House of the loans to land- stituents in South Tyrone, and to a large lords in Ireland, under the late Go- number of the tenantry in every part of vernment, in 1879; allow me to remind Ulster. This is one of the questions of the noble Lord that this is one of which I may say that there is absolute the instances in which the landed inte- unanimity upon it between those who are rest has overriden the country. We Nationalists and those who are not. I have had loans to the Irish tenants and believe that the majority of the purloans to the Irish landlords-loans at the chasers themselves are Presbyterians. I expense of the taxpayer. But I am glad do not know whether there are any hon. that this state of things has come to an Members from Ulster present, who end. The present Parliament does not usually sit about the Gangway; but I mean that this Government should con- think they would be able to say that tinue in that course. There is a desire their constituents think as strongly on now to do justice to the taxpayer, and this subject as ours do, and would recolnot to prop up the landlords at their ex- lect the sympathy they expressed for the pense, which latter class will have in class concerned in their speeches in Irefuture to conduct their business so as to land. I think also that they will say produce the best result out of the land, that this is in no sense whatever a Party or they will have to give way to better question, and that if the right hon. Genmen. It is the interest of the country tleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland that we should have the best men on the (Mr. John Morley) sees his way to afford land; and I am of opinion that there relief to this most struggling and decannot be a stronger reason for reform serving class of Irish tenants, he will be than that three-fifths of the food re- sending a message of peace into Ulster quired in this country comes from that will be received with the greatest abroad, and not out of the land in which satisfaction, and also with feelings which we live; and the only proposal we have will tend to allay that exasperation which made to us by the landlords is that we exists upon the subject. The purchase should lend them more of the taxpayer's of the glebe lands by the tenants was money at a rate which the taxpayer will in no respect a voluntary transaction. lose by. Sir, I do hope that the result Under the terms of the Land Purchase of what has taken place will be that the Act, 1868, the tenants were obliged to door will be shut for ever on the part of exercise their right of pre-emption, or the taxpayer against the rapacity of the the property would have been sold and landlord. new landlords put over them; they were compelled to purchase at the valuation. of the Church Commissioners, which was, practically speaking, the landlords' valuation, and was, at one time, at the enormous rate of 23 or 24 years' purchase, and this, in the case of poorer tenants, was run up as high as 30 and 35 years' purchase. They were obliged, in addition, to scrape together one-fourth of the purchase-money, and almost all of them had to raise the money from banks at 6 per cent, while many of them had to borrow from private money lenders, at an enormous rate of interest. Sir, the Irish tenants have received absolutely no benefit from the land legislation of the last 15 years. Even leaseholders have managed to get temporary abatements of rent at various times, and they are now under the provisions of the Land Purchase Act; but these poor purchasers of glebe lands are fastened down to con3 B

Question put, and agreed to.

Main Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

TENANTS OF GLEBE LANDS (IRELAND).-OBSERVATIONS. MR. W. O'BRIEN: Sir, I wish to call attention to the Motion which stands in my name upon the Paper

"That, in the opinion of this House, the relief provided by the 23rd section of The Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1885,' in respect of lessees and tenants purchasing Church lands in Ireland is inadequate and inaccessible, and that the condition of these purchasers, owing to the exceptional circumstances under which they were induced to exercise their right of pre-emption, and owing to a long succession of disastrous seasons, claims the urgent attention of Her Majesty's Government with a view to making further and more effectual provision

for their relief."

VOL. CCCII. [THIRD SERIES.]