without any material alteration of its | been of opinion since he had gained any main provisions, but would be sent down experience in this matter that it was to the House of Commons in time to impossible to effect a real and satisfachave a chance of being passed there also. tory change in the Lunacy Law as long This important matter had long waited as it remained possible-human nature for legislation. It had been very carefully being what it was for those persons considered both by a Committee of the who kept asylums to have an interest in House of Commons some time ago and retaining patients who were placed in by their Lordships last year, and also by their charge. He regretted to say that, the Lunacy Commissioners and by the both as a counsel at the Bar and since he portion of the general public who had had had the honour of a seat on the given attention to it. It was a most diffi- Bench, he had seen cases in which it cult question undoubtedly; but he said was manifest that persons perfectly unfit with great confidence that the clauses of to be detained in a lunatic asylum had the present Bill would go a long way to been detained by the interest and by the do that which was possible-for, of representations, certainly coloured by course, there was much that was not that interest, of the keepers of the asypossible for the correction of whatever lums where the patients happened to be abuses did exist under the present sys- incarcerated. He had stated before, and tem, to allay the reasonable apprehen- he took the liberty now of repeating the sions of the public mind, and to do that statement-which was, of course, not of which was sufficient to protect personal universal application by any meansliberty, while at the same time securing that, for some reason or other, to be the that the necessary care was taken of the keeper of an asylum was not a pursuit unfortunate class of persons concerned. which commended itself to the highest His noble and learned Friend had stated minds in the Medical Profession. He that he had introduced some alterations believed the greatest men among the into the Bill of last year, to strengthen Medical Profession would concur with its provisions in regard to the gradual him in saying that, as a rule, the best substitution of public for private asy- men among them did not take to this lums. He himself had been sensible of pursuit. He thought, therefore, no one the importance of attaining that object with any experience at all could doubt, by gradual and prudent means as soon regard being had to human nature, that as it could be done, and, therefore, he to give a medical man an interest in rewas very far indeed from being unfa- taining a patient was to subject his vourably disposed towards those alte- moral nature to a strain which few could rations. If he himself had not seen bear. He was not much moved by the his way to go quite so far, it was more, answers to evidence of misconduct in perhaps, because the great question of this respect. They all knew that in the compensation, with which their Lord- case of a person placed in any of those ships could not deal, stood in the way, asylums the very last thing which such than from a want of desire to accomplish a person would do was to mention the that end. He would only express his fact of his incarceration. Although the hope that their Lordships would give to speedy cure of the patient was the surest his noble and learned Friend the same advertisement to the skill of the practikind and liberal support which they had tioner, and to impelling other persons to given to himself last year. seek similar relief, yet that state of things did not apply in the case of lunatic asylums, because people who had been detained in private lunatic asylums forgot the fact as soon as they could, concealed it as long as possible, and mentioned it to as few persons as they could. The fact that there were speedy cures was not of direct personal advantage to the medical man who effected them as it was in the ordinary run of cases. He trusted, therefore, that so far as this Bill went something would be done to prevent the multipli LORD COLERIDGE said, that, having considered this subject with great care, there were three points to which he desired to call the attention of their Lordships. Two of those points were noticed in the Bill; but he ventured to suggest to his noble and learned Friend that something more was to be desired, and the other point did not appear to be noticed. The first point was that to which his noble and learned Friend had just referred-namely, the extinction by degrees of all private asylums. He had The Earl of Selborne cation of those asylums. When it was said that no further licences were to be granted to these houses, he hoped it was intended to provide that no further licences would be granted to any fresh persons, because it was obvious that the asylums might be perpetuated in other hands. In reference to the second point, he was glad to see that there were alterations proposed in the Bill regarding the present state of the law as to the examination of patients. He remembered a case in which the late Lord Chancellor was counsel, and he himself was the Judge. Undoubtedly the person who had been the subject of the incarceration was mad, and was most properly placed in confinement, and yet, owing to the manner in which he had been dealt with and the process used towards him being so outrageous, it was with the greatest difficulty that the jury were persuaded to do justice in this particular case from indignation at the state of the law. He thought, therefore, that some more stringent provisions than even those of his noble and learned Friend might with advantage be introduced in the Bill. Especially was this the case with respect to the examination of the lunatic when it was conducted by the magistrates. It should always be conducted with the assistance of a medical man, and after notice to the lunatic himself that he was to be subject to such an examination, in order that he might be given an opportunity of taking part in the proceedings, and of explaining, if he could do so, the circumstances on which his alleged lunacy was founded. He had known of cases where persons had been examined without the slightest idea on their part that they were being examined, and without the slightest expectation on their part that their imprisonment in an asylum was pending. He thought, therefore, that when the Bill was discussed in Committee it might be amended in some respects in this direction. So far as he could see, another useful provision was not to be found in the Bill. According to the present state of the law, the person who put the law in force against a lunatic, however bond fide he might act, was not protected. He could not help thinking that this state of the law, in many instances, caused great hardship, the person so acting, if it was found that he was mistaken, being oftentimes subject to actions for heavy damages. He submitted to their Lordships that some provision protecting the person who acted in a bond fide manner should be inserted in the measure. THE EARL OF MILLTOWN said, he must express his satisfaction at hearing the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack speak so strongly against licensed private asylums. He would have heard with greater pleasure the statement that the noble and learned Lord had seen his way to at once suppress those institutions. He was willing to admit that the reasons adduced by the noble and learned Lord for adopting a moderate course were strong, although he was of opinion that the financial difficulty might be met by issuing bonds or by some analogous measure. If licensed houses were to be continued, those who kept them ought to be proper and qualified persons. As a matter of fact, most improper persons were allowed to keep them. Some were kept by discharged coachmen and persons of that class, who had no medical knowledge whatever. Many houses were kept purely in the way of business speculation, and that in itself was very undesirable. Many complaints were made that friends and solicitors could not obtain access to patients. There might be good reasons why a patient should not be allowed to see the order for his incarceration, but it ought not to be impossible, as it was often found to be, for friends to see the order, so that they might know the grounds on which it had been made. Brutality was often practised, and yet neither the police nor the public could do anything, as the order of incarceration was an answer to all interference. It ought to be compulsory on the Commissioners to see a patient within a month of his committal. Thirty per cent of the acute cases were either cured or proved fatal within three months; and if a patient might be left three months without a visit, it was obvious that many patients might die without ever having been seen by a Commissioner. A penalty for malfeasance ought to be recoverable either by the patient on his discharge, or by his friends. In this respect the Bill left far too much to the Commissioners. There were too few Commissioners for the work to be done. When six were appointed the number of lunatics was one-fourth of what it was now, and remove a lunatic in a case where a certificate of lunacy had been given for imprisonment. The Statute said that he might order the removal. In his opinion, the Secretary of State ought not to have the power, except when a person was in such a condition that he was not only a lunatic, but also unfit to plead. the expenditure was £200,000 compared with £2,000,000 now. If there were not too many then there must be too few now. The houses in the Metropolis were directly under their care; and these were supposed to receive four visits a-year. The Commissioners had to pay their visits in couples, a medical and a legal Commissioner going together; and it was obviously impossible that three couples of Commissioners could do their duty by 8,000 patients in the Metropolitan district and 70,000 more outside that district. There were other points and deficiencies which would call for consideration in Com-gested that it would be greatly to the mittee. EARL BEAUCHAMP said, that the clauses which gave the Secretary of State power on the report of the Lunacy Commissioners to require the Local Authorities to provide accommodation for lunatics in the public asylums where that accommodation was stated to be necessary required careful attention on the part of their Lordships. He was not aware that there had been any hesitation on the part of the Local Authorities in providing the necessary accommodation, or in fulfilling the obligations laid on them by the law, and it was not, in his opinion, desirable to override their jurisdiction. He should object very much to the Secretary of State or the Commissioners being empowered to place heavy burdens upon the ratepayers in this matter. LORD BRAMWELL remarked, that there were many minute regulations in the Bill now before their Lordships and in the Bill which would follow it. He did not say that they were not necessary; but he recommended that they should be expressed, if possible, in the form of rules under some authority, so that if any alteration was required in them it could be carried out with making application to Parliament. Another matter-the law as it would stand under the next Bill on the Paper-the Lunacy Bill-would enable the Secretary of State to remove any person certified to be a lunatic from prison. The consequence would be that although a lunatic might be committed for trial he could not be tried, notwithstanding the fact that he might be perfectly innocent of the offence charged against him. On the other hand, he might be guilty, although a lunatic. The Secretary of State was not bound to The Earl of Milltown LORD EGERTON said, he wished to make some remarks on the clauses relating to idiots and imbeciles. He thought that the clauses on that subject would effect a very great improvement upon the existing law, but suginterest of idiots and imbecile persons, and also to their relatives, if the Lord Chancellor would take out of the Bill the clauses relating to those classes and embody them in a separate measure. Many children who were confined in idiot asylums were now educated and reclaimed to such an extent as to be able to follow some trade, and no longer be a burden on their families, and it placed a certain stigma upon them to class them with lunatics under that Bill. LORD ESHER said, he had heard the term "incarceration" used in connection with this subject. It was a word which seemed to suggest an idea of offence or disgrace. It seemed to him that such a term depended upon an error which might give colour to a Bill of this kind which it ought not to have. It would be a good thing when everybody was of opinion that a disease of the mind was no disgrace to the person who was suffering or to any person belonging to him. Next, it was not every person of diseased mind who ought to be placed under control. If there was disease which did not affect the safety of the person diseased physically or as to his property, or the safety of others, he ought not to be placed under restraint. In the Bill itself there was no definition of the person who ought to be put under control, although the form of the medical certificate showed that the medical practitioner must certify more than mere disease of mind. It was said in the Bill that it was a person who was a lunatic. But that was not a definition, for people might have very different opinions as to who might be a lunatic, or to what extent in particular cases the disease might go. It was not, as he had said, every- agree with Lord Coleridge's suggestion one who had a diseased mind or that when lunatics were about to be might be a lunatic in one sense who examined by doctors, they should be was a proper person to be taken in warned of the purpose for which the charge and put under restraint, and it examination was required. He fully would be for the general safety that agreed as to the necessity and justice that view should be expressed in the of treating lunatics with every consiBill. Then there were other precautions deration and fair play; but he did not which should be taken. A magistrate think that object would be achieved not possessed of sufficient weight or ex- in a satisfactory way by putting the perience placed himself too much under lunatic on his guard, by providing that, the influence of the medical men; and when examined by a medical man, he it was somewhat dangerous that any should be cautioned as to the purpose for medical man, however young or inex- which he was being examined; because perienced, should be allowed to sign a everyone with the most superficial knowcertificate. Then they must deal with ledge of lunacy was well aware of the the case of a person not only before but cunning, which was so great and so farafter he had been placed under control. reaching, in all persons thus afflicted that It was too much to say that after a if, in all cases, an intimation was given person had been put under restraint of the object of the inquiry, the examithere need be no fresh inquiry for three nation would be almost worthless. He years. Inquiry should be much more regarded the Bill, on the whole, as a great frequent. Lastly, it was evident, in view advance on the existing state of the law, of recent litigation, that unless they pro- and trusted that it would soon pass vided very strong safeguards for the into law. He would also suggest that protection of relatives or friends, who some parts of the Bill should be apmight have taken the original steps, and plied to Ireland as well as England, also for the protection of the medical for he did not believe in separate legismen, who might have acted in the lation where the objects to be legislated matter, both one and the other might be for were identical. placed in a very unsafe position, although they acted in perfect good faith. There ought to be protection for them in such case. LORD ASHBOURNE said, that the most important and striking amendment proposed in the Bill of his noble and learned Friend was that which provided for the gradual extinction of private asylums. He had not heard from noble Lords in any part of the House any objection to that proposal, and he thought it was a wise one. It would not, in his opinion, be fair to the many honourable men engaged in that branch of the Medical Profession to introduce a drastic provision for the sudden extinction of their establishments. He believed that the provisions of the Bill by which provision was made for the care and retention of wealthy or solvent lunatics would require careful examination by their Lordships. The machinery by which the ratepayers were to be forced to provide houses for the recep. tion of those now confined in private asylums, who were admittedly able to pay for themselves, would also need to be very closely regarded. He did not LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH asked whether it was not desirable to make some provision for paying patients when the present system of private asylums should be done away with? He could see no reason why the cost of founding and maintaining asylums for those not of the pauper class should be thrown upon the counties. He believed that it would much more conduce to a proper treatment of lunatic patients if the numerous asylums which would spring up under this Bill should be so systematized that the different classes of mental diseases might be kept distinct. To treat certain cases properly separate asylums were indispensable; and children of tender years should not be confined with full-grown persons. This question would require serious consideration in Committee. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he was much indebted to their Lordships, not only for the manner in which the Bill had been received, but for the valuable suggestions that had been made. With regard to the remarks of the noble Lord who had last spoken, he might say that he anticipated that LUNACY BILL.-(No. 13.) (The Lord Chancellor.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read. THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that he need not trouble their Lordships further than to state that this was a mere measure of codification. As it was extremely desirable that all the provisions relating to lunatics should be embodied in one Act, he intended to propose that the Committee stage of this Bill should be delayed until after the Bill which their Lordships had just read a second time should have passed that House, so that the provisions of that measure should be incorporated in the present consolidation the ultimate result of the Bill would be a saving instead of an additional burden to the ratepayers. At present the country sustained a substantial loss because there were many patients in county asylums just above the pauper class who could not afford the expense of private asylums. Many persons now confined at the public expense would have a certain sum provided by their friends for their maintenance in the new asylums, so as to give them additional comforts and remove them from the pauper class. He agreed with the observation of a noble and learned Lord that great mischief would be done if unnecessary difficulties were put in the way of placing lunatics under control. Owing to recent litigation, the fear of having actions brought against them deterred many people from taking steps to have their relatives confined, even where it was highly desirable for the latter's own sake that they should be placed under control. The consequence was that many of these persons remained at large until they came into collision with the police. That was very undesirable; and it was of importance that unnecessary obstacles should not be thrown in the way of placing undoubted lunatics under restraint. With regard to the observations of the noble Earl on the Front Benches in reference to the fresh inquiry into the state of mind of incarcerated lunatics every three months, A Bill for extending, with amendments, to he admitted that in the case of lunatics grounds for drill and other military purposes, who had been confined in public asy-regulation of rifle ranges-Was presented by the enactments relating to the acquisition and lums for long periods such inquiries The Lord Sandhurst; read 1a. (No. 24.) might be regarded as being too fre measure. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2."" (The Lord Chancellor.) In answer to the Earl of MILLTOWN, THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that the Committee stage of the previous Bill would be fixed for that day fortnight. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly. DRILL GROUNDS BILL [H.L.] HOUSE OF COMMONS, quent, and he thought that it might be House adjourned at quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past as well to amend the Bill in Committee Ten o'clock. by providing for more frequent inquiries being had during the earlier years of incarceration and less frequent as time went on. In conclusion, he might say that he was not irrevocably wedded to any particular provisions in the Bill, and that he was ready to give his best consideration to any proposals which would make the measure more valuable, and would conduce to the general welfare of their unfortunate fellow-creatures. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 15th instant. The Lord Chancellor Monday, 1st March, 1886. Sir |