answer to this Question. One is that much of the Correspondence would be of a private and miscellaneous characterby private I mean representing only the opinions of private individuals. The other reason is, that the communications which I may receive may, in many cases, hopes of special promotion for acts of gallantry and daring, which Order has been stated to have remained for thirtythree years a dead letter, whether he will inform the House if it be the intention of the Admiralty either to cancel that Order or to give it effect? THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMI-be in other forms than writing. They RALTY (Mr. HIBBERT): The present condition of entry, education, and promotion of naval officers have prevented hitherto any special promotion of seamen to commissioned officer, except such as is provided for in the commissioned ranks of chief warrant officer; and the recent wars in which the Navy has borne part have not been of such a nature, from a naval point of view, as to give sufficient reason for the exercise of the powers given in the Article quoted by the hon. and gallant Member. The Admiralty do not intend to cancel the Order, as if we were involved in a great national struggle it might have a very beneficial effect. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Motion for a Committee to inquire into the Government of India will be brought forward? THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE), in reply, said, he had heard from his noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley) that Notice had been given in the House of Lords of a Motion for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the Government of India. The consequent steps, if the Lords acceded to the Motion, would be taken in the House of Commons in the usual form. CORRESPONDENCE ON THE IRISH QUESTION. MR. JOHNSTON asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he will lay upon the Table of the House the Correspondence on the Irish Question, invited in his letter to Lord de Vesci, that will have taken place before the 1st of April, in order that facilities may be afforded for forming an opinion on the question of Irish Legislation, in the same manner as enjoyed by the Government? THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE): There are two reasons why I cannot give a simple affirmative Captain Verney may be oral, and therefore I cannot answer in the affirmative. I have no doubt, however, that there will be representations-as, indeed, there have already been-from public bodies, some of which it may be expedient to place before the House. That I will consider. LEASEHOLDS ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL. MR. LAWSON asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he will instruct the Select Committee to be appointed to inthe compensation for improvements posquire into the terms of occupation and sessed by the occupiers of town houses in Great Britain and Ireland, to include the Leaseholds Enfranchisement Bill in their examination? THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE), in reply, said, the idea was thrown out in a recent discussion on an Irish Bill, and such an intimation as that suggested would be a large addition to the field of inquiry of that Committee. He did not say that there would be anything wrong in it; but he would have to know a little more of the views of the House before he would be prepared to give a pledge. He thought, however, that a private Member might very fairly give Notice of a Motion enlarging the scope of the Committee in the manner indicated by the hon. Member. If he did so, it would receive careful attention. SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. MR. W. H. SMITH asked the First of the Treasury, When he intended to take the Army Estimates? MR. GLADSTONE said, that the Army Estimates would be taken on that day fortnight, provided sufficient progress were made on the Monday proceeding with the Navy Estimates. MR. W. H. SMITH said, he hoped copies of the Estimates would be supplied to Members some days before the date named by the right hon. Gentleman. MAINTENANCE OF SOCIAL ORDER (IRELAND).-RESOLUTION. MR. HOLMES, in rising to move"That this House is unwilling to entertain Estimates for the Civil Establishments in Ireland before being placed in possession of the policy which Iler Majesty's Government intend to pursue for the restoration and maintenance of social order in that Country," said, that he rose to address the House under a sense of deep responsibility. He should not have brought this Amendment forward had he not been convinced that the subject was one of extreme urgency and of very grave importance. He need not apologize, however, for taking the course which he intended to take that evening. The first duty of any Government was to maintain social order; and if it could be shown that the Government of the day had failed in that respect, or was careless, or not entirely in earnest about preserving social order in any part of Her Majesty's Dominions, it became not only the right, but the actual duty, of a Member of that House, who represented a constituency situated in the country where the disorder existed, and who had been connected with the administration of justice in that country, to take every means in his power to impress the Government with the necessity of performing their duty, or at least of explaining their position. The Government had at all times peculiar means of forming a correct opinion as to the condition of any part of the country; and, that being so, the House had some reason to complain that in connection with the present state of affairs in Ireland it had not received the assistance and guidance which on former occasions it had generally obtained, and which at all times it had a right to expect. The question of social order in Ireland had been much discussed of late. They had heard on all sides that Ireland was in a dangerous condition; but notwithstanding that, and notwithstanding that upon the first occasion when the House met after the change of Ministry, his right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) challenged in the most pointed way the Irish Chief Secretary to make a statement as to the condition of Ireland, no definite Member of the Government. It was information had yet been given by any true that the Prime Minister had, on more than one occasion, used the expression "social order in connection with Ireland; but they had not heard from him what his own opinion was as to whether the condition of that country with regard to social order was now satisfactory or the reverse; and if it were unsatisfactory, to what extent, and in what way, that unsatisfactory condition was made manifest. Under those circumstances, it would be necessary for him on the present occasion to endeavour from other sources, and by facts and inferences which could hardly be denied, to describe the state of Ireland. For that purpose it would be necessary to go back a little; but he would promise the House that he was not about to enter upon any matters of ancient history, and that in referring to bygone transactions he did not desire to enter into any Party recriminations, which seemed to him to be as unbecoming as they were useless. He would ask the House to consider if there was any material from which they could judge of the condition of Ireland as regarded social order in the month of May in last year. At that time the Executive in Ireland had for almost three years been governing the country by means of an Act passed in 1882, in the carrying of which the late Liberal Administration received the loyal assistance of the Conservative Party in the House. That Act did a very good and a very effective work. Crime, outrage, and all those offences described as agrarian, which had risen to an enormous amount in 1881 and 1882, towards the end of 1883 were reduced, he was ready to admit, to a very great extent from the operation of that statute, to about one-third of the number in 1881 and 1882. For the 15 or 16 months that followed the year 1883, and up to May, 1884, those offences, as regarded their character and number, remained almost uniform. In the month of May, 1884, there was a decided improvement as compared with 1881 and 1882; but he thought he was justified in saying that a reference to statistics | Salisbury had to take into consideration would show that the state of things was the very same question their Prewas far from satisfactory; for, although decessors had to consider, and in conan improvement existed as compared nection with which they arrived at the with 1881 and 1882, if they made a conclusion to which he had referred. comparison with the five-and-a-half The House was aware that after that years of Lord Beaconsfield's Administra- question had been carefully considered tion they would find that those crimes by that Administration they came to and outrages were, at all events, two- the conclusion that the Act might be fold, if not three-fold, more than during allowed to lapse for the period that those five-and-a-half years. In the would intervene until a Parliament was month of May, 1885, Her Majesty's then returned by the new electorate. There Government, presided over by the right was no portion of the policy of Lord hon. Gentleman now Prime Minister, Salisbury's Government that had been who had the assistance of many of the more attacked by hon. and right hon. Members of his present Administration, Gentlemen opposite than the resolution undertook, he had no doubt in the not to renew the Crimes Act. That was most careful, anxious, and circumspect the only portion of the policy of that way, the consideration of this question; Government that had been attacked in and what was the conclusion arrived at any general way. As regarded the by them and announced to the House at foreign policy of that Administration, the end of May or the beginning of as regarded its Colonial policy, as reJune? They were told that, although garded its domestic policy they had that Parliament was then expiring, they heard little or nothing but praise from had arrived at the conclusion that it was right hon. Gentlemen opposite. He was necessary for the safety of Ireland that not rising on the present occasion to some portion of the statute should be re- defend the resolution then arrived at, enacted. He did not think it was ever and he would at once tell right hon. definitely stated in the House what were Gentlemen opposite the reason why he the particular provisions it was deter- did not consider it necessary to defend mined to submit to the House for re-it. It was this-that if the House connewal; but he gathered from a letter to his right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) that the provisions it was proposed to renew consisted of almost all the provisions that had been in practical use-in other words, all the useful and effective provisions of the Act of 1882. What was the natural inference from that? It was that the condition of Ireland, in the judgment of the then Government, was in the months of May and June last year so grave that it required immediate legislation for the enforcement of the law. Circumstances occurred, as they all remembered, in the month of June of the same year which led to the then Government being replaced by the Administration of Lord Salisbury. [Ironical Irish cheers.] He was quite prepared to hear from time to time that cry from hon. Members below the Gangway, which he supposed he was bound by courtesy to describe as a cheer; but he could assure hon. Members that he would proceed with his observations regardless whether the cheers were in one direction or the other. The first question the Administration of Lord Mr. Holmes sidered that the conclusion at which Lord Salisbury's Government arrived was erroneous, it strengthened a hundred, even a thousand-fold, the argument which he was now impressing upon the House. There was one matter to which he wished to call attention in this connection, and that was that at the time when that policy was submitted to the House by Lord Salisbury's Administration it was not stated in the House or elsewhere that in their judgment the social condition of Ireland was in a satisfactory state. The only thing stated was that, having regard to the peculiar circumstances of the time, to the fact that Parliament was then expiring, to the fact that any renewal of that measure must be of a temporary character, and having regard to the belief that the lapse of that measure would not be followed by any outburst of crime, the Government came to the conclusion that, under the special circumstances of the case, the Act should not be renewed. He would also state that in forming that opinion he believed the Government were further influenced by the hope that if Ire land were relieved from the exceptional legislation against which she had so vigorously protested, if she were treated in this respect in a spirit of trust and confidence, the good feeling of the inhabitants themselves would operate in the direction of law and order, and that in this way a distinct and positive improvement might be obtained. Whatever might be said with regard to other anticipations, he regretted to say that that hope was not realized; and, in so far as that hope was concerned, the experiment proved totally and entirely unsuccessful. MR. W. O'BRIEN: Why did you not say that before the General Election? MR. HOLMES, continuing, said, he made that admission frankly and fairly; but, at the same time, he declared there never was a more ridiculous or absurd proposition brought forward with reference to Ireland than the one suggested, he believed, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he said that the step thus taken by Lord Salisbury's Administration changed for ever the policy of Irish government. Statesmen who were thinking of renouncing opinions but recently expressed, and of unsaying words that had been recently spoken, were very frequently driven to find extraordinary explanations; but he would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, if he was contemplating any tergiversation of that kind, that it would be prudent of him to select some more reasonable explanation. In fact, he thought that if the right hon. Gentleman wished to justify his own change of opinion by a change of policy taken in reference to Ireland by a Government just coming into power, he might refer to what was done in that connection by a Government of which he was a Member when it assumed Office in 1880, and when, at a most critical period of that country's history, it determined to abandon that Peace Preservation Act which had been in existence over 30 years, and the renewal of which was considered by its Predecessors to be absolutely necessary for the public safety. He now came to the period during which, as regarded the state of Ireland, he had considerable knowledge, and as to which he might be even permitted to speak with some degree of authority. Being responsible to a considerable extent for the administration of justice in Ireland VOL. CCCII. [THIRD SERIES.] during the last months of 1885, he applied himself to the task with whatever abilities he possessed, and certainly with unremitting attention. The Criminal Law was put in force on every possible occasion; every effort was made to maintain the reign of law and order; but, nevertheless, the social condition of the country did not improve. As regarded crime and outrage, and those offences which found their way into criminal statistics, he did not say that, as compared with the month of May and previous months, there was a marked deterioration; but so far as there was a change it was a change for the worse. He had heard it said by Gentlemen below the Gangway on that side that during that period Ireland was never more peaceful and free from crime. He could only say that, so far as there was a change from the month of May, it was a change for the worse, and especially in the last months of the year it was more marked; and he would ask, if the state of the country was not satisfactory in the month of May as regarded crime and outrage, how could it be contended that during the latter part of the year it never was more peaceful and safe? So far as regarded the number of criminals; but when they turned away from the mere enumeration to consider the nature and character of the crimes committed, and the circumstances by which they were attended, the picture became much more melancholy. In this country, and in many others, it was often said, and said truly, that crime, as a rule, was the work of the criminal classes, who had broken away from restraint, set society at defiance, and entered upon a regular life of lawlessness. It was not so long ago that the same description might have been applied to crime in Ireland. They had in years past crimes connected with "Whiteboyism," and with "Moonlighting;" and apologists had given extraordinary explanations of those crimes. They had been told that they were all the work of the police; at other times that they were the work of landlords; at other times that they were the work of the agents of Tory Governments; and more generally that they were the work of Liberal Governments. He supposed that that allegation would not be accepted. But they were also told that those crimes were committed by persons who came from 3 Q But a distance into the districts where they | for murder. They did not indict him took place, and that they did not point for murder because he had left the place to any general demoralization. Now, and had abandoned the undertaking enhe had looked with great care into those tirely and completely before the murder crimes which were committed in Ireland was committed; and by a well-known in the latter part of 1885; and he re- rule of law, though he was guilty of gretted to say that, as far as he could one of the most serious offences, it judge, they were committed by men would not amount to murder. in the immediate district where they Mr. Curtin was shot at and murdered. occurred, and whose antecedents and The man who fired the fatal shot was general character would lead to the pre- a murderer, and the man who died sumption that they were law-abiding; from the shot was a murdered man. and it was to be observed that the cri- He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman minals received the sympathy and pro- would be satisfied with that explanation. tection of the people in the districts in Former Chief Secretaries for Ireland which the crimes were committed. He had applied to murder the name that it did not make that statement on his own generally bore; and, as regarded the responsibility only; it was supported by administration of justice in Ireland, it facts and evidence. Some of the Moon- would be just as well that that practice lighters about the end of last year were should be continued. He now came to detected and brought to justice. They the case itself. Considerable attention were tried and convicted. In every was attracted to the case, by reason of single instance, as far as he remem- the heroic conduct of members of the bered, they were committed by farmers family; but in other respects it was or sons of farmers who lived in the im- a very typical case, and all its circummediate neighbourhood, and who re- stances might be taken as an illusceived, and in all other respects deserved, tration of the state of things. Mr. an excellent character; and in almost Curtin was a man who, as far as anyevery instance witnesses of the same one had been able to ascertain, had description were produced for the de- always lived a peaceable and blameless fence in support of fabricated state- life, unless, indeed, it was considered as ments, for the purpose of rendering an offence to be a little more prosperous convictions difficult, if not impossible. than his neighbours, and to have paid ["Oh!"] He said fabricated state- his rent. He had committed no offence, ments, because the verdict of the jury as far as he understood. A band of must be taken as conclusive on this point. marauders, however, attacked his family All that pointed to a different state of and his home. They were composed of things than that those crimes were the farmers living in the neighbourhood, work of the merely ordinary criminal class having no just fault to find with him, -it pointed to a widespread demoraliza- and yet they engaged in that expedition. tion. But other circumstances told the When that band entered his house there same story. Reference had been made in were in it, in addition to the members that House to what was called the Curtin of the family, six farm servants who had murder case. That murder had been been living there for years, and who described by the Chief Secretary for were as strong and stalwart as any to Ireland as an unfortunate death. ["Hear, be found in the country. Those farm hear!" and "No!"] Certainly, that servants had no quarrel with their emword had been used by the Chief Secre- ployer. They were attached to him, as tary. he understood; but, being there, they said no word and raised no hand to protect him or the family. In a civilized Christian country could anything be more demoralizing and more degrading than that? That was a typical case. There lay two corpses there after the terrible occurrence. One was the body of the head of the family-the man who had stood up in defence of his property and the people about him, and whose very last words before he received the THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): I used the word "death," but instantly altered it. I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman why he did not indict Casey for murder? MR. HOLMES said, he supposed that the question just put to him covered a suggestion that the death was not a murder. He would tell the right hon. Gentleman why they did not indict Casey Mr. Holmes |