MR. CONYBEARE seconded the Amendment. Amendment proposed, At the end of the 6th paragraph, to add the words-"But this House humbly expresses to Her Majesty their regret that the Revenues of India have been applied to defray the expenses of the military operations carried on in the Kingdom of Ava, without the consent of Parliament as required by The Government of India Act, 1858.' "—(Mr. Hunter.) Question proposed, "That those words be there added." and interests. The Act of 1858, and | General) begged to point out that nothing the gracious Proclamation of Her Ma of the kind had been decided. The jesty in the same year, were regarded question, no doubt, might be raised, as by the people of India as their Magna a similar question was raised in 1878 by Charta. The provisions of that Act had the Motion of Mr. Fawcett, against been violated. He, therefore, asked the charging the Revenues of India with the House to adopt the Amendment he now expenses of the operations in Afghanmoved, in order to maintain the law and istan. He thought a few minutes' consito vindicate its own statutory rights and deration would show hon. Members, even Constitutional powers. if they had not the advantage of the legal training of the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen, that the section to which the hon. and learned Member had referred imposed certain restrictions, not one of which had been in any way neglected by Her Majesty's Government. The hon. and learned Member had argued as though it were unjustifiable in the Government to go to war without the previous consent of Parliament. The 1878, and the then Attorney General same question was raised indirectly in (Sir John Holker) showed that that was THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir by no means a correct construction of the RICHARD WEBSTER) said, he was sure Act of Parliament. The question was that hon. Members would be glad to involved in the terms of the 54th section welcome the hon. and learned Member of the Act, that section providing that, for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter) as a when an order was sent to India directparticipator in their debates. There ing the actual commencement of hostiliwere many subjects on which the great ties, the fact of such order being sent experience and learning of the hon. and should be communicated to both Houses learned Member would be able to assist of Parliament within three months, if the House; but he (the Attorney Gene- they were sitting, and, if they were ral) must confess he was sorry that it not, within one month after the next should have fallen to the lot of the hon. meeting of Parliament. He thought he and learned Member, as a new Member, need scarcely point out that two alternato move the present Amendment; be- tives were contemplated by the sectioncause he (the Attorney General) would the commencement of war at a time when venture to submit that the hon. and the House was sitting, and at a time learned Member had somewhat mis- when the House was not sitting. In the understood tlie restrictions imposed by latter contingency, which applied to the the Act of 1858, and that, under existing present case, the responsibility of those circumstances, there could not be any who undertook the operations was to substantial ground for the Amendment. communicate the fact to Parliament one He therefore proposed, with the permis- month after the meeting of Parliament. sion of the House, to deal with the legal He submitted, therefore, that to anyargument which the hon. and learned one who was capable of appreciating Gentleman had advanced, and then to say the plain language of the section, it could a word or two upon some of the general not have been passed without it being considerations by which he had sup- in the contemplation of those who ported his Amendment. The hon. and were responsible for the enactment learned Member for North Aberdeen that war might be declared without had been arguing before the House the consent of Parliament, otherwise as though, by the action of Her Ma- there would have been no object in sayjesty's Government, it had already ing the fact should be communicated to been decided that the expenses of Parliament within a month after its next the operations, the responsibility of meeting. Passing on to Section 55, he which Her Majesty's Government fully submitted that it provided for a state recognized, were to be defrayed out of the of things not within the purview of Revenues of India. He (the Attorney the hon. and learned Member's Amend [Third Night.] was supported by a majority of 110, and that it did not please the Party opposite to alter the law during the five years they had been in Office, he ventured to think that Her Majesty's present Ad a ment. It enacted that, except for preventing or repelling actual invasion of our Indian Possessions, the Revenues of India should not, without the consent of both Houses of Parliament, be applicable to defray the expense of any mili-visers would have been shirking retary operations carried on beyond the sponsibility if they had hesitated to act frontiers of such Possessions. The state under the circumstances, because they of circumstances contemplated by the were afraid that some such Motion as section was the preventing or the this would be brought forward. While repelling of invasion; but what was the hon. and learned Member disthe case which was to depend on this claimed, at the beginning of his speech, state of circumstances? It was whe- any intention to call in question the ther the Revenues of India should or general policy of the Government, he should not be applicable to defray the had thought fit to make certain stateexpense of military operations. The ments which, if they remained unanHouse would see, therefore, that it was swered, might seem to lead to the connot a question of whether war should clusion that the Government had acted be undertaken or not. The hon. and indiscreetly or improperly. It was no learned Member, no doubt, honestly part of his (the Attorney General's) duty wished to raise a great question; but he to argue whether or not there was a (the Attorney General) should like to sudden or urgent necessity in this case; point out that the question whether war but no one who would candidly read the should be, or should not be, commenced, contents of the Blue Book, instead of and whether military operations should referring to letters in The Times, and be undertaken, rested with the Advisers other newspapers, which did not appear of Her Majesty at the time, and it was in it, could doubt that there was not a question of previously obtaining sudden and urgent necessity which justhe sanction of Parliament. The hon. tified the action of the Government. The and learned Member, in his Amend- hon. and learned Member had spoken of ment, which expressed the regret of the the Bombay and Burmah Corporation as House that the Revenues of India were though it was a body which merely had to be employed in the operations in some claim against the Burmese GoBurmah, assumed that that question vernment which might be made the subhad already been determined which ject of arbitration. For 20 years the must be submitted to the House; and Bombay and Burmah Corporation had if he chose, when the debate arose on been in intimate relations with the the question as to how the expenses Burmese Authorities. The dispute bewere to be defrayed, he had the oppor- gan by suggestions being made that the tunity of raising any objection he Bombay and Burmah Corporation had thought proper as to the course of action bribed the present Governor of the Propursued by Her Majesty's Government. vince of Ninghyan, with a very large But he (the Attorney General) trusted bribe-namely, six lacs of rupees, in that he had shown the House that the order to cover their frauds. Upon that responsibility of beginning the military suggestion being at once challenged the operations was to be determined by Her Burmese officials shifted their ground, Majesty's Advisers, subject to the con- and alleged that the Bombay and Burdition that certain communications were mah Corporation had not paid a suffito be made to the Houses of Parlia- cient amount under the leases of 1880, ment, with the addition that the ques- and that they had defrauded the foresters tion as to how such expenses should who had been in their employ. be borne should be governed by the would undertake to demonstrate to any decision of Parliament. When he re- hon. Member that there was no foundamembered that this question practi- tion for either of those charges. When cally formed the subject of a solemn the charges were made, they were only debate in 1878, in which the right hon. supported by the testimony of a few Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian discharged servants, or of persons acting (Mr. Gladstone) took part, and when under the compulsion of the Burmese he remembered that the action of Her Government. The Bombay and BurMajesty's Government on that occasion mah Corporation courted, from the beThe Attorney General He ginning, a thorough investigation of | tunity of criticizing the conduct of the charges made against them; but the Government; but he (the Attorney they were unable to secure either the General) submitted that that conduct substantiation of the charges, or an in- was not to be criticized by a side wind, vestigation. But the matter did not, on a Motion made by way of suggestion by any means, stop there. The hon. that some condition in an Act of Parliaand learned Member had referred to the ment had not been fulfilled before the question as a mere money demand, operations began. He only desired to which might be made the subject of add that, having given his careful conarbitration, or an action for damages; sideration to the matter, and looking at but there were other considerations. In it not only as a lawyer, but also with the the end of 1882 and the beginning of object of finding out which side was in 1883, a new lease having been arranged, the right, so far as he had been able to the Corporation paid down in advance form an opinion, he had come to the for the right of cutting wood in the distinct conclusion that there was no forests no less than four and a half lacs foundation whatever for the charges of rupees. He wanted the House to made against the Company, and that understand that this, which was called those who represented Burmah, knowby the hon. and learned Member a ing they were in the wrong, were at money claim, was something which was once proceeding to enforce their unalleged by the Burmese Government as righteous and improper demands by having happened with reference to force, which Her Majesty's Government timber in 1882. Having paid that large could not allow to pass unnoticed. The amount in advance, this Corporation general policy of the Government in had other considerations which ought matters of this kind rested in far wiser to have influenced, and he trusted did hands than his; but it was well known influence, their minds. They had in that prompt action in these matters did their employ several thousand persons, not, as a rule, lead to prejudicial results. of whom no less than 2,000 were British They knew perfectly well that the exsubjects; and instead of the Government penditure of a few hundreds might preof Burmah simply declining to accept vent the ultimate loss of thousands, and the proposals for arbitration, or saying that the expenditure of a few thousands that some other tribunal must be de- might prevent the ultimate loss of tens of vised, whereby the questions in dispute thousands; and when it was suggested could be determined, on the 24th Sep- that Her Majesty's Government ought tember, four days after the hon. and to have stayed their hands before they learned Member had told the House the undertook the responsibility of these dispute might have been amicably set- operations, he ventured to point out that tled, they demanded payment of 23 lacs they were inviting criticism, because of rupees from the Corporation in respect the question of how this expenditure of those alleged breaches. On the 24th was to be met was still open; and, of September this was the condition of in his opinion, Her Majesty's Governmatters, as stated in a telegram from the ment would have been entirely wantBombay and Burmah Corporation- ing in their duty to the country and the first principles of government if, having made up their minds that there was a case for prompt and energetic action, and in view of the interpretation of the law for which they contended, they had delayed to undertake these operations. "Burmese soldiers insist on stopping the rafts, notwithstanding the orders of the Governor of Ninghyan. He has no power to enforce his orders. Soldiers have fired on several of our rafts. Raftsmen are frightened, have been arrested, and put in the stocks by soldiers." There were various degrees of opinion as to the extent to which Governments ought to forbear; but it seemed to him (the Attorney General) that Her Majesty's Government had some duty to perform towards the 2,000 British subjects who were in the employ of the Bombay and Burmah Corporation. The hon. and learned Member would have a further oppor MR. GLADSTONE: Like the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down, I do not feel it necessary to enter at any very great length into the question that has been raised by the hon. and learned Mover of this Amendment. But I must say, in passing, that this being the first opportunity we have had of hearing the hon. and learned [Third Night.] Mover, I have listened, in two respects, and it has not been-to pronounce that with great pleasure to his speech. I there was no sudden or urgent necessity thought the general principles he pro- in the condition of things in Burmah pounded were eminently sound; and which led to the action of Her Majesty's otherwise he appeared to be a Gentle- Government. If there was a sudden man who, in the course of his speech, and emergent necessity, then, by the proved to us, in the most satisfactory confession of all parties, it was open to manner, his power to bear a very useful Her Majesty's Government to proceed and distinguished part in the discussions without obtaining the prior assent of of this House. But the hon. and learned Parliament to the employment of Indian Member the Mover of the Amendment Forces, or to creating a charge upon is, in this respect, I think, unfortunate Indian Revenues. In other times it -that the Amendment he has moved has been in this condition-that quesdoes not cover the whole breadth of the tions of the most vital importanceground he undoubtedly occupied in his questions of war, of conquest, far larger speech. The Amendment only raises in their character even than this-were the question—one of grave importance, decided without the smallest hope or no doubt, but still the comparatively possibility that Parliament would exernarrow question-of who is to meet the cise any control over them whatever. In expenses that have been incurred? But this instance, I think I need only say a considerable portion of his speech un-that, as regards the merits of the quesdoubtedly touched what is a deeper tion, I keep my mind entirely open. I matter--namely, the merits of the con-noticed on a former night a sentence duct of Her Majesty's Government in in the Speech from the Throne, not this very important matter. I would keep those two questions entirely distinct. The Attorney General, I am bound to say, has kept them entirely distinct. But, before referring to either of them, I must undertake to point out to the Attorney General that there is a palpable error in the proposition with which he concluded his speech, because he contended that the Parliament of 1878 passed a direct judgment upon this question. I, without hesitation, say that this is an entire mistake. I quite agree that the argument was made, and made with great decision, certainly by myself, with regard to the construction of the Act. I quite admit that the whole tone and temper of that Parliament was entirely the opposite to our contentions on that and on other matters which have been since dealt with in a somewhat different way. The issue was not raised on the Motion, and no decision was given by the Parliament, directly or indirectly, upon the construction of the Act. With regard to the second part of the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman, and which touched the same subject-matter as the second portion of the hon. and learned Mover's speech, I agree undoubtedly with the hon. and learned Gentleman to this extent-and it is a very important agreement-that I do not think the House is at this moment in a condition-even if the question had been raised by the Amendment, Mr. Gladstone because I thought it conveyed a doc- My not be such a justification-that it cer- | the contention of the hon. and learned tainly must be drawn from broader and Gentleman. If the hon. and learned deeper considerations than the mere re- Gentleman had sat as long as I have sat lations of a Company with the Burmese in this House during a multitude of Government. I do not know the hon. Indian wars- during the first Afghan and learned Member's intention; but I War, during the Scinde War, during the doubt whether the House will approach Persian War-[General Sir GEORGE this question satisfactorily by any divi- BALFOUR: And the Chinese Wars.] sion on the Amendment now before us. Well, the Chinese wars are a very painIn asking the House to assent to this ful subject. As far as my recollection outlay, the Government will have to goes, I do not know that those wars make a Motion, which will afford ample raised this particular question. and legitimate opportunity for consider-recollection rather is that in the case of ing the question of the liability of the the greater of these conflicts, in the Indian Revenues; and with respect to Chinese War of 1839, we had a perthe matter which constituted so great a fectly free hand, and were able to pass part of the speech of the Mover of the judgment upon the question, irreAmendment, and which was not touched spective of any financial embarrassby the Amendment itself. I venture to ment. But in these cases to which I hope that the House will not be called have referred-and, perhaps, the list to decide anything by voting upon the of them could be enlarged. what Amendment. I must say a few words Parliament, and what successive Parliaupon the more legal and professional ments, felt was that they were reduced portion of the speech of the Attorney to a state of absolute impotence. The General. He has stated his views to- question came before them simply as a night, as he has done during his short question of censure upon the Governexperience in this House, with great ment, and in no other practical shape. clearness and force; and he has referred The clause of the Indian Government to the argument made use of by the late Act of 1858 was intended to provide an Sir John Holker when he so honourably effectual remedy for that mischief. Not filled the position now occupied by the in every case. That clause was much hon. and learned Gentleman. Though I considered-I do not say it was much dediffered much from Sir John Holker in bated in this House. It was intended to politics, this I will say that I appre- provide a remedy; but not in every case. ciated and admired his legal knowledge. It was generally felt that where there I never heard a legal argument from Sir was actual or meditated invasion, there John Holker, whether I agreed with you must be content to take the risks of him or not, without great pleasure and compromising the authority of Parliaadmiration for the masterly way in which ment, and leaving the Indian subject he handled his subject. Therefore, I do practically without remedy. It was felt not approach this subject under pre- that the exception of invasion was not judice. But I must give fair notice wide enough, but that another exception to the hon. and learned Gentleman should be introduced, and that was the that I am prepared to contest to the case of sudden and urgent necessity. uttermost his legal doctrine as to the These were words which, in the hands of construction of the Act of Parliament. the Government, might be elastic words; The doctrine was advanced-I do not but, nevertheless, it was necessary, unlike to use the word extravagant-but doubtedly, to have a provision of that in the most advanced form it was capable kind in the Act of Parliament; and so of assuming by the Earl of Iddesleigh; far I admit that it is not possible for us and, if I remember his contention, he to exercise any previous control. But I argued thus:-He said there is nothing affirm, in the boldest and most confident in the Act of Parliament to prevent the manner, that the purpose of Parliament advance of the money from the Indian was, setting aside the case of invasion, Treasury; and if Parliament subse- and the case of sudden and urgent necesquently determines that those advances sity, to provide a prior control for Parshall be repaid, and the charge shall be liament in questions of this kind. What finally borne by the Consolidated Fund, is the contention of the hon. and learned then the Act of Parliament has been Gentleman? His contention is that the satisfied. That I also understand to be whole object of the clause was to reserve [Third Night.] |