(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 56 (and will be found in the appendix on p. 19499) and 56-A" may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. KENNEDY. That letter is June 21. I believe it says that they are enclosing something.

DEAR MR. O'NEILL: Enclosed is a copy of the proposed eastern area truckaway and driveaway agreement.

*

This letter will also confim the fact that we will meet with you again at the time and place agreed upon.

Mr. O'NEILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. It would appear that you did not have the eastern conference of Teamsters demands at that time, at least from the eastern conference, until June 21.

Mr. O'NEILL. Well, of course, you are talking dates, Mr. Kennedy. I will be very happy to check my records or try to recollect. But you are talking 1955. I don't remember every little incident that happened.

Mr. KENNEDY. There is a note here on June 3 in this memorandum which says

demands arrived from eastern conference, over-the-road section, for truckaway operations

which would appear that you did get something on June 3. But it would appear also that the official communication that you received did not arrive until June 21, 1955, from the eastern conference of Teamsters.

Yet Mr. Hoffa was there discussing the demands of the eastern conference of Teamsters with you on June 7, some 14 days prior to the time that you received official communications from the eastern conference of Teamsters.

That is what the documents appear to indicate.

Mr. O'NEILL. It is very possible that we had received or that they had made their demands.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words you had received, orally or otherwise, information as to what they were demanding, obviously, when you discussed it with Mr. Hoffa. You had already received it.

Mr. O'NEILL. First of all, Senator, I didn't discuss it with Mr. Hoffa. We may or may not have received something, Senator. It is very possible Mr. Hoffa being the chairman of the Central States conference, that he had received the demands before they were given to us. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. The memorandum indicates you had received demands, you knew what they were, and that was the purpose of discussing it, and how you would proceed in the matter. Hoffa, according to the memorandum, expressed his opinion that they were too high.

Mr. O'NEILL. I do remember, Senator, that the demands at the time our basic rate on a mileage basis was within a penny of 13 cents a mile, the demand was something like 20 cents in addition to that, which is over a 100-percent increase on a mileage rate.

The CHAIRMAN. I can well understand that you might have had verbal or oral information about their demands were, but they didn't

come to you in a formalized proposed agreement or contract until a later date, an you had them tentatively as to what they were, what they were going to be, when this conference was held with Mr. Hoffa some few days before.

That is the way it appears. Have you any other explanation?

Mr. O'NEILL. No, I don't, Senator, because I just don't have the records. From what you have taken from my records, it would certainly seem that way; yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. We have a letter dated June 2, 1955, where the eastern conference sends a copy of the demands to Mr. Hoffa. That is dated June 2, 1955. The conference was held with the O'Neills and Mr. Matheson on June 7, 1955, and the eastern conference didn't send the demands out to the employers until June 21, 1955.

The CHAIRMAN. You may have learned from them that day, from Mr. Hoffa, as to what the demands were.

Mr. O'NEILL. That could have been, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Obviously, he had them before, according to the -records.

Mr. O'NEILL. That could have been.

The CHAIRMAN. He could have submitted them to you and told you what they were that day.

Mr. O'NEILL. It could have been.

Mr. KENNEDY. It also states in this memorandum

Hoffa thought it would be wise to use Carney in negotiations.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is Carney?

Mr. O'NEILL. Carney Matheson is sitting beside me, Senator. As I say, I didn't participate in that discussion, so I am extremely sorry but I can't throw any light on it other than what would be my guess. It would be that Mr. Hoffa would naturally advise Mr. Matheson's participation in the negotiations because Mr. Matheson had negotiated the automobile contracts in the Central States as far as I know since its inception.

Mr. KENNEDY. Why would the union official be suggesting to employers that they hire a particular individual to conduct their labor negotiations? That is what is of interest to us, particularly in view of the former relationship that had existed between Mr. Matheson and Mr. Hoffa.

Mr. O'NEILL. I can only throw this much light on it, Mr. Kennedy, because I honestly did not participate in that part of the discussion in the office with Mr. Hoffa. My guess would be that we had discussed, of course, using Mr. Matheson in the East and possibly Mr. F. J. O'Neill suggested to Mr. Hoffa that we would like to use Carney Matheson.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is not what this says. This says, "Hoffa thought it would be wise." I just want to point out for the record 'that according to your testimony, we would have gotten an entirely erroneous picture of what the situation was-that is, about the fact of Mr. Hoffa discussing this contract or ever suggesting Carney Matheson-if it had not been for the fact that we were able to obtain this document.

I might say, Mr. O'Neill, that you did make the documents of Anchor Motor Freight available to the committee.

36751-59-pt. 55-13

Mr. O'NEILL. You are welcome to all of our records.

Mr. KENNEDY. It is fortunate, as I am sure you realize, that we were able to get this document, because it is very enlightening, indeed.

How much did you pay Mr. Carney Matheson thereafter to conduct these negotiations?

Mr. O'NEILL. We paid Mr. Matheson to conduct the original negotiations expenses and legal fees, $20,000.

Mr. KENNEDY. And was he paid by any of the other companies to conduct the negotiations?

Mr. O'NEILL. Frankly, Mr. Kennedy, I would rather not testify because I have no

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you receive any other fee?

Mr. MATHESON. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. KENNEDY. From who else?

Mr. MATHESON. Nu-Car Carriers and associated companies.
Mr. KENNEDY. How much did you receive?

Mr. MATHESON. The same amount, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. $20,000?

Mr. MATHESON. That is right. For negotiation over a year's work. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever tell any of the union officials, Mr. O'Neill, that you had Mr. Hoffa in your back pocket?

Mr. O'NEILL. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did Mr. Hoffa ever relate to you that that had been discussed with him?

Mr. O'NEILL. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He never said that?

Mr. O'NEILL. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You never made a statement to any individual, any Teamster Union official, to the effect that you had Mr. Hoffa in your back pocket?

Mr. O'NEILL. I do everything I can, Mr. Kennedy, to tell the truth at all times, and that would be a terrifically big lie. So obviously—I am sure I never said anything like that, positively.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?

Mr. KENNEDY. That is all for now, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything, Senator?

Senator ERVIN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Call the next witness.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Topazio.

Mr. Chairman, we are going now into the effect of Mr. Hoffa's negotiations with some of the individual unions. The next witness is one who will precede the major witness, who will be Mr. Ted Daley. The CHAIRMAN. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TOPAZIO. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY TOPAZIO

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. TOPAZIO. Anthony Topazio, 33 DeMartino Avenue, Yonkers, N.Y.; a truck driver.

The CHAIRMAN. You waive counsel, do you?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Áll right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Topazio, you appeared before this committee before, did you not?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. In 1957?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You were one of those who were involved in the so-called paper locals?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. And that was in our paper local investigation; is that right?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. You appeared before the committee and took the fifth amendment at that time?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And this time you wish to answer all the questions; is that correct?

Mr. TOPAZIO. I do.

Mr. KENNEDY. You spell your name T-o-p-a-z-i-o; is that right? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I might make a preliminary statement. This gentleman's testimony is in connection with the steps that are taken by Mr. Hoffa or by his chief lieutenants against those who oppose him in some of these negotiations. With the next witnesses we are going into what the effect is on the local union membership, and what the effect is on the enforcement of the contracts, when they are opposed to Mr. Hoffa and some of Mr. Hoffa's associates. The CHAIRMAN. When did you appear before the committee before? Mr. TOPAZIO. July, if I am correct; July of 1957, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. July 2 years ago?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. At that time you say you declined to answer questions?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. You have since decided to cooperate with the committee and give us the benefit of what knowledge you have?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to commend you. I certainly think that it is of importance that people who have information that will help their Government, give it guidance in meeting its responsibilities, will give it. I don't know. I want to hear your testimony. I hope you have information which will be worth while.

Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Topazio, you worked for the local of Johnny Acropolis, originally; is that correct?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. You were a member of his local?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. After that you were hired as an organizer by Sam Zakman, of local 102 of the UAW-AFL?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was the local of Mr. Johnny Dioguardi, ultimately?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Dio took over from Sam Zakman, did he, subsequently, took over control of the local?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Zakman and Dioguardi had a fight and Dio gained control of the local?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand that that local was then being financed by Johnny Dioguardi?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Then I did; yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Also from local 102 you became an organizer for local 649, which was another of Johnny Dioguardi's locals?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. As an organizer for local 649 you got into some difficulty with the law?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. You and Joseph Cohen?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you were indicted for conspiracy and attempted extortion?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You were convicted and pleaded guilty to the conspiracy?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was 1952?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you were sentenced to what?

Mr. TOPAZIO. Ten months.

Mr. KENNEDY. At Rikers Island?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you emerged from prison, you became a member of local 445, Yonkers, N.Y.?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Shortly after you became a member of the local, the two officers, Stickel and Massiello, got into difficulty themselves with the law, is that right, in an extortion?

Mr. TOPAZIO. From what I understand, Mr. Kennedy, they were already in trouble before I was even a member of that union.

Mr. KENNEDY. But ultimately they were indicted and convicted and sent to the penitentiary for extortion?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is, Lester Stickel and Philip Massiello. They were indicted and ultimately convicted for shaking down New York milk dealers for $64,000.

One of those who led the rank and file against Stickel and Massiello was Mr. Ted Daley; is that right?

Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. There was a good deal of agitation within the union?