Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. Were you called in to New York-were you called in to New York to meet with Mr. John O'Rourke at the Hampshire House in connection with Mr. Ted Daley? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. Who else did you meet with there? Mr. TOPAZIO. There was a call left for me to go down to the Hampshire House and ask for a suite or an apartment. This was in about 1955. It was Abe Gordon's apartment. Mr. KENNEDY. Abe Gordon's apartment? Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes. It was in the Hampshire House. It was at the time of the merger of the AFL and CIO. I met John O'Rourke there, and and Mr. Johnny Dio. Mr. KENNEDY. Was Abe Gordon present also? Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes, sir. There seemed to have been some stirring around or commotion up in 445 with Mr. Ted Daley and Mr. Hopkins. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. James Hopkins? Mr. TOPAZIO. Hopkins. Mr. KENNEDY. H-o-p-k-i-n-s? Mr. TOPAZIO. Hopkins who was with Mr. Daley. I was asked if I knew them, and I told them I didn't. The purpose of this meeting was to try to get to Mr. Hopkins and Mr. Daley and try to offer them some sort of a job and stop this bickering with the officials of 445. Mr. KENNEDY. Officials with whom they were bickering at that time were the two individuals who had been indicted for extortion? Mr. TOPAZIO. I think it was the whole slate, too. Mr. KENNEDY. They wanted you to make an approach down there to see if you could get them to take some job so that they would no longer be fighting Stickel and Massiello; is that correct? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you agree to try to do that? Mr. TOPAZIO. I certainly did. I tried to do it. I was a member of 445. Being Mr. John O'Rourke was there, and that he had the good intentions of the union, that is why I approached. Mr. KENNEDY. Whom did you approach? Mr. TOPAZIO. I tried to make an appointment, and I finally got to a Mr. Hopkins. He was to make an appointment. Mr. Daley was to be present. I was to give them this. Mr. Hopkins showed up but Mr. Daley didn't. He made a subsequent appointment. Again Mr. Hopkins showed up but Mr. Daley didn't, and nothing ever came of it. Mr. KENNEDY. What job were you authorized to offer? Mr. TOPAZIO. Business agents. Mr. KENNEDY. If they would stop their opposition to Massiello and Stickel? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently, this agitation continued, and Mr. Daley obtained control of the local. Mr. Stickel and Massiello went to the penitentiary. Mr. Daley obtained control of the local. Was there then some step taken to set up independent locals, apart from local 445? Mr. TOPAZIO. There was, Mr. Kennedy. But prior to that there was so much commotion in the rank and file we never knew exactly what was going on. Mr. KENNEDY. I want to get to this other time. I think we stated there was a considerable amount of agitation. Mr. TOPAZIO. Yes. Mr. KENNEDY. Was there an effort to set up an independent local to take members away from local 445? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. You helped form one of these locals, did you not? Mr. TOPAZIO. Well, I was never a member of it. It was the move from the rank and file of 445 because they were getting nowhere with the international or with the officials involved. They thought it would be the best idea to form their own independent union. However, before that was formed, I contacted Mr. O'Rourke who, himself, I think, was just becoming a member or was involved in something with the joint council. He knew before this was formed, that is, a group of members from 445, and he OK'd it. He gave it his blessings. He said, "OK, go ahead. Anything to give them trouble." Mr. KENNEDY. The point of this, Mr. Chairman, is that you have a Teamsters Union, Local 445; that the two top officials are involved in extortion, indicted, and convicted; that there is some rank-and-file dissension with the union officials. Ultimately they kick the local union officials out of office. They vote a new slate in, led by Mr. Daley. The international officers, led by John O'Rourke, are still in opposition to Mr. Daley. They want to support Stickel and Massiello, the ones who have gone to the penitentiary. So they know and are aware of the fact that an independent union, outside of the Teamsters Union, is set up, and they give their blessings to this independent union that exists in order to take members away from the Teamsters Union. Did Mr. O'Rourke help or assist in financing this independent operation? Mr. TOPAZIO. The rank-and-file committee for an election of 445 members had obtained some machinery to turn out leaflets. These leaflets were costly, and we always used to chip in for them. But at the time of the idea of the independent 500 being involved, we were pretty broke, and Mr. O'Rourke gave me $200 toward expenses for paper and telephone calls and stuff like that we needed to operate. Mr. KENNEDY. That is Mr. John O'Rourke, who is now a vice president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters? He gave you $200 in order to help finance the operation of this independent local which was trying to take membership away from the Teamsters local? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And the trouble in the original Teamster local was that you had some thieves at the head of it? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is the way it looked, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. That is the way it was. Mr. TOPAZIO. That is the way it was found out. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. All right. Mr. KENNEDY. And O'Rourke told you at that time that he would take any steps to get rid of that "red-headed son of a" Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. "in Yonkers"? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you attend the Teamsters international convention in Florida? Mr. TOPAZIO. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Did Hopkins report to you regarding that convention? Mr. TOPAZIO. Well, right after the convention, Mr. Kennedy, which was held in 1957, I received a telephone call from Mr. Hopkins, who was the president of local 445, my home local, and he told me that he was in trouble with the rank and file, and he was told by Mr. O'Rourke to contact me and for me to get him a vote of confidence from the members of local 445 explaining why he, Mr. Hopkins, and another business agent of local 445, a Mr. Shaeffer, voted for Jimmy Hoffa and a new slate of vice presidents at this convention in 1957, and that Teddy Daley did not vote for them. Well, I didn't believe Mr. Hopkins, and I started to realize probably a little later that I was just being one of the dopes in this whole outfit. I took Mr. Hopkins and I told him, "Look, I don't know if you are telling me the truth or not, but let's go down to Johnny O'Rourke's and prove this," and we did. We went down to Johnny O'Rourke's. Mr. Hopkins picked me up and we went down there. The reason why Mr. Hopkins voted for them was that as president of 445 he was interested in 445, and before he would vote for Hoffa or any of his group he had a problem of upstate-I don't know exactly the town or the county-that a local 269 was infringing on the jurisdiction of 445, and they were raising the dickens with signing up nonunion members at a lower rate, and if these members would stop, if 269 would stop, if the sister Teamster local would stop organizing up there and turn over its members to 445, Jimmy Hopkins would vote for him. Jimmy Hopkins told me that was done at the convention in Florida, by Mr. O'Rourke, and I don't know the other international official's name offhand. Mr. KENNEDY. Did Hopkins relate to you that he was approached by Joe Curcio and Jimmy Hoffa in connection with this? Mr. TOPAZIO. He told me there was somebody campaigning for Jimmy Hoffa. They got to Johnny O'Rourke and Johnny O'Rourke got to whoever was heading 269. I don't remember the names. Mr. KENNEDY. Did Hopkins relate that he had discussed it with Hoffa himself? Mr. TOPAZIO. He said Hoffa was there and made sure that this situation was cleared up to get the votes. Mr. KENNEDY. As background, local 269 was one of the paper locals, involved in the paper local case. What would appear from the testimony is that if this man Hopkins, who was president of local 445, would vote at the convention for Hoffa and the Hoffa slate, then Hoffa and O'Rourke would arrange for some of the members of local 269 to be turned over to local 445 in Yonkers. On February 24, 1958, you were ordered expelled from the Teamsters Union by the officers of local 445? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. For fostering dual unionism; is that right? Mr. KENNEDY. And this conviction was appealed to joint council} 16, which was headed by O'Rourke? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. They ordered a new trial; is that right? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. But Mr. O'Rourke at that time knew all about the dual unionism because he had been one of the ones that had made the arrangements with you? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. And helped finance it? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. O'Rourke ordered a new trial. Then local 445 appealed this decision, and two subsequent hearings were held by a three-man panel appointed by Hoffa; is that right? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. On July 1, you were notified that you had been found guilty of dual unionism; is that right? Mr. TOPAZIO. I don't know exactly. I gave the copy to the committee. I didn't receive it in the mail until I was subpenaed down here. I walked across the street and got myself a copy of it. Mr. KENNEDY. The letter from the international went on to state, however, that since you had been deprived of union membership since February 24, 1958, that— He shall be reinstated into membership; that he shall be ineligible to be a candidate for any office in a local union for a period of 2 years from the date of this. decision. But you were reinstated in the membership of local 445. Mr. TOPAZIO. Let me remind you, Mr. Kennedy, I have not been working since the last time I faced this committee, and I was naiveenough to believe in this constitution, and I think it is very important to this committee. There is a section in here that says that all local unions within the jurisdiction of the joint council shall affiliate with. the joint council and comply with its laws and obey its orders. Johnny O'Rourke, knowing all of this, ordered local 445 to give meanother trial. They didn't comply with that. When I appealed further, and I brought it to his attention that I should have had a decision 60 days, I quoted the constitution again, and another article, that in all matters of appeals, decisions will be given within 60 days of the trial. From February 1958 until yesterday, I was without any kind of a decision from the international, but through at least two hearings, two before an international panel, and one before the joint council.. The CHAIRMAN. You were expelled from the union, were you? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. Expelled because you helped set up an independentunion? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is the charge they made. The CHAIRMAN. But as I understand it, vice president O'Rourkeactually helped finance this independent union, did he? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. Was he expelled? Mr. TOPAZIO. No, sir. That is one of the reasons, Senator, that I believe that expulsion has been held up there, because now that I do, become a member I do have the grounds in this constitution to bring the charges up against Mr. O'Rourke. The CHAIRMAN. Are you going to bring them? The CHAIRMAN. I hope you do, if you have any. I hand you here a photostatic copy of a letter dated July 1, signed by John English, apparently addressed to you. Will you examine it and state if that is a carbon copy or photostatic copy of a letter that you received? (The document was handed to the witness.) Mr. TOPAZIO. Mr. Senator, I called my home from downstairs, and my wife notified me that she had received the certified letter. Mr. Tobin, who represents the local department of the Teamsters, handed me this prior to my knowing if there was one home or not. My wide did confirm that she got it. This is his copy. The CHAIRMAN. Your understanding is that that is a copy of the letter you received dated July 1. You received it in the last 2 or 3 .days? Mr. TOPAZIO. That is right, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit No. 57. (Letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 57" for reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 19500.) Mr. KENNEDY. That is all, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further? If not, thank you very much. Call the next witness. Mr. KENNEDY. We are now going to call Mr. Daley, Mr. Chairman, and you will see how this testimony fits into the testimony we have had in connection with the contracts. The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Daley, come forward. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. DALEY. I do. TESTIMONY OF THEODORE G. DALEY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, FRANCIS MARTOCCI The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation. Mr. DALEY. My name is Theodore G. Daley. I live at Chelsea Hills, Beacon, N.Y. I am secretary-treasurer of Teamsters Local Union 445 in Yonkers, N.Y. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have counsel? Mr. DALEY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Counsel, identify yourself for the record, please. Mr. MARTOCCI. Francis Martocci, 277 Fair Street, Kingston, N.Y. "The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Mr. KENNEDY. How long have you been a Teamster Union official, Mr. Daley? Mr. DALEY. I was elected on December 12, 1955. Mr. KENNEDY. How long have you been a member of the Teamsters Union? |