Mr. GOSSER. In 1947. Senator CURTIS. Who became president of local 12 after you diately became regional director?

imme

Mr. GOSSER. I think, but I am not positive, I think Melvin Schultz. Senator CURTIS. But how long did he serve as president of the local? Mr. GOSSER. You have got me there. The records would show, and I don't know whether he served two terms or three terms.

Senator CURTIS. How long is a term?

Mr. GOSSER. Well, it was first 1 year in our union, and now it is 2 years.

Senator CURTIS. Now what connection

Mr. GOSSER. It could have been longer now, and I don't want to be stuck on that one.

Senator CURTIS. The records would show. Now what connection if any did you have with an organization called the Will-O-Land Club, or Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club?

Mr. GOSSER. Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club was started away back in the beginning of the union in the Willys-Overland plant, which is now known as the Kaiser-Willys plant in Toledo, Ohio, where each member paid $1 a week to be a member.

Senator CURTIS. How many members did you have at the highest membership?

Mr. GOSSER. I think that you are asking me a question that it would be impossible to answer. I think we strived for around 100-and-someodd members, but I don't know whether we had them or not.

Senator MUNDT. Can you pull that sound box a little closer to you? We are just getting about every other word.

Mr. GOSSER. I am very sorry.

Senator CURTIS. Who were the officers of the Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club?

Mr. GOSSER. At the very beginning, you mean?

Senator CURTIS. Yes, or I will say at the time of the purchase and sale of the Sand Lake property. Who was president of the Will-OLand Sportsmen's Club?

Mr. GOSSER. I am not sure of that, but let us say I was, I think I was, but I am not sure of that.

Senator CURTIS. I believe that you were. The records would so indicate. Now did the Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club buy the Sand Lake property?

Mr. GOSSER. I think to clear this up so it does not have to be a question and answer point, I think that I should say that from the dollars collected, Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club bought this location at Sand Lake. From there they sold it to local 12 for a summer camp, and they bought Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club in Clare, Mich., and from there they sold it to the local and every person that was a member of this, all they ever got back was what they put in it. If you put $285 in it, you got $285 back, and nobody ever even got an interest off their money.

Senator CURTIS. Now the Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club purchased the Sand Lake property in about November of 1943?

Mr. GoSSER. If you say so, I would say "Yes."

Senator CURTIS. What was the purchase price?

Mr. GOSSER. Well, you can refresh my memory, and whatever you say, it seems to me it does not matter but whatever you say is all right.

Senator CURTIS. Would $9,500 be correct?

Mr. GOSSER. It could be.

Senator CURTIS. Now at a later time, did the Sportsmen's Club sell the roller rink which was a part of this Sand Lake property to one William F. Davis?

Mr. GOSSER. We sold it to someone.

Senator CURTIS. And the sales price was $9,000?

Mr. GOSSER. It could be.

Senator CURTIS. And that was in about July of 1944?

Mr. GOSSER. If you say so.

Senator CURTIS. Then in June of 1945, another parcel of the property was again sold to Mr. Davis for $3,500, which was completed in August of 1948. Would that be correct?

Mr. GOSSER. I would say if you say that is correct, it is correct, Senator.

Senator CURTIS. Now in other words, you paid $9,500 for it and sold of two parcels and received $12,500 for the two parcels; is that correct? Mr. GOSSER. If you say so.

Senator CURTIS. Now in buying it in the first instance, when the Sportsmen's Club purchased it, was there some loans obtained from the Willys-Overland Credit Union?

Mr. GOSSER. If they were, I don't know of them.
Senator CURTIS. You didn't borrow it?

Mr. GOSSER. As an individual, I didn't make an application. It seems to me, but I could be wrong, I thought the credit union was started after the Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club. The club was one of the things that help us build the union in the framework; at that time we were fighting Pinkerton detectives and you had to meet in the basements. I don't say what you are saying is not true.

Senator CURTIS. I am reading from the union document which says the purchase of the property was financed by borrowing $4,000 from the Willys-Overland Credit Union on November 26, 1944. So you paid $9,500 and sold off two portions of it for a total of $12,500.

Then did the Sportsmen's Club, which you say had about 100 members, and you were president, sell the remainder of the property to the Automotive Workers Building Corp.?

Mr. GOSSER. If you say so. My point is that in the end, the union wound up with all of it and the people that had their money invested in it-the records of the court will prove that nobody got more than what they put into it, and they never even got interest on their money, and so to me the figures doesn't seem to mean anything.

Senator CURTIS. They may to us. Is it true that while you were president of the Sportsmen's Club, this club that had about 100 members, you sold to the Automotive Workers Building Corp. the remainder of that property for $20,000 on May 20, 1947?

Mr. GOSSER. Yes, and we had a person who is qualified to go into Federal court and testify as to the worth of that, and I think that he gave us a statement that it was worth

Mr. GOERLICH. Mr. Manuel has the photostats of those appraisals, and I am sure you have them.

Senator CURTIS. I understand.

Mr. GOERLICH. We might have been a little bit better prepared in the proceeding to have all of this information for you had you met with us and told us exactly what you wanted.

Senator CURTIS. I made my request for some things I wanted and I never got them until the hearing started.

Mr. GOERLICH. I handle these cases in the common pleas court, and I am a little rusty on it too because I don't know what you want.

Senator CURTIS. The record will show at a subsequent time there was an appraisal. But the fact remains that you, as the head of a private club, sold this property for $20,000 to the building corporation which you were also head of. Is that correct?

Mr. GoSSER. If you say so, I suppose it is.

Senator CURTIS. Well, is it?

Mr. GOSSER. I am assuming it is. You have all of the facts here and I have nothing.

Senator CURTIS. Do you deny them?

Mr. GOSSER. I don't deny them, and the point I am saying is I agree with you. I am not denying anything, and when I get to the point where I want to deny something you are saying, you will hear it and understand it very clearly.

Senator CURTIS. Now, who is a member of the Auto Workers Building Corp.?

Mr. GOSSER. Who is a member?

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Mr. GOSSER. I think the bylaws stipulate that all dues-paying members of local 12 are members of the building corporation.

Senator CURTIS. In other words, the building corporation is the corporation set up to hold the property of local 12; isn't that right? Mr. GOSSER. That is right.

Senator CURTIS. So the real owners of the building corporation were the members of local 12.

Mr. GOSSER. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. How many members does local 12 have?

Mr. GOSSER. When do you speak of? When do you want me to say?

Senator CURTIS. In 1947.

Mr. GOSSER. Well, that would be quite impossible for me.

Senator CURTIS. Well, did they have 500 members, or 1,000, or 10,000, or did they have 20,000?

Mr. GOSSER. In 1947, do you have the figures there? I am trying to agree with you if you have the figure.

Senator CURTIS. I don't have the figure as to the number of members. Mr. GOSSER. I would say-and this is a figure that I don't want to say later on I misstated a fact; I am guessing-but I would say it was around, and we could get it from the international files, because we paid per capita tax, but I would think we must have had around 18,000 or 20,000 members.

Senator CURTIS. About 18,000 or 20,000 members?

Mr. GOSSER. I would think that; yes. I could be wrong.

Senator CURTIs. About how many people were at the meeting when they purchased this property?

Mr. GOSSER. When they voted to purchase this property you mean? Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Mr. GOSSER. Well, I think you ought to say, first of all, instead of asking me the question in that respect, I think that we should say that there was a notice put in the paper, in advance, and there were hand

bills passed in all of the plants, and everybody that was a member was entitled to come and it is like any other thing, I am sure

Senator CURTIS. What was the number?

Mr. GOSSER. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. What did the notices recite?

Mr. GOSSER. I don't have a copy of them. You have a copy of it. Senator CURTIS. Did it tell what they were going to buy and for how

much and from whom?

Mr. GOSSER. I don't have that notice, and I can get it for you. Senator CURTIS. About how many members were present at the meeting?

Mr. GOSSER. I wouldn't want to quote that. I don't know. You are asking me to go back a good many years and say how many people were at a meeting.

Senator CURTIS. How many did you have at most of your business meetings?

Mr. GOSSER. You would love to pin me down to a figure, but you are not going to.

Senator CURTIS. You wouldn't give us an estimate?

Mr. GOSSER. No.

Senator MUNDT. How many does the hall hold at your meeting? Mr. GOSSER. I think that the hall that we had would have held-it was the largest hall in the city, if I remember right. I just don't even remember. Sometimes we used local 12 hall and sometimes we used Scott High hall, and sometimes we used the city hall, which is a big hall, and now they have a bigger hall, and now we use that hall sometimes, and it depends on what the occasion is, Senator.

Senator CURTIs. What one were you using back in 1947?

Mr. GOSSER. This particular year, now you are asking me a question that I come unprepared to say, and I can find out where the meeting was held and approximately how many people were there, but to say it right now, I can't.

Senator CURTIS. Well, it is an approximation, and if you could give

us the size of the hall

Mr. GOSSER. Usually at a local 12 meeting, at that time, I think there was around 1,000 or 2,000 people showing up, and I think that, but I can be wrong. But it seems to me that there were about that many people.

Senator CURTIS. We have information that the hall only held about 200 where this meeting was held on April 2, 1947, so if it was full, you would have 2 or 3 percent of the membership.

Mr. GOSSER. Well, if we had it in parlor A of local 12, that would be the smallest hall of all, Senator. I just want to tell you whoever gave you that information doesn't know what they are talking about, and any time you want to come to Toledo, I am sure that you will attest to the fact it will hold around 500 people.

Senator CURTIS. Now, Mr. Gosser, what use was made of this Sand Lake property after it was purchased by the building corporation in behalf of all of the members of local 12? What did you turn it into? Mr. GOERLICH. In that statement there was a folder.

Mr. GOSSER. There is a folder.

Mr. GOERLICH. It was made into a summer camp; isn't that the answer?

Mr. GoSSER. Yes, sir; and I am sorry, you have the folders now, and not me.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. Are you speaking of this folder? Mr. GOSSER. No, Senator, the other one. That is the green one. That is local 12 summer camp, the one he is talking about.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to have this made an exhibit to your testimony, so that it can be referred to?

Mr. GOSSER. That will be very nice.

The CHAIRMAN. This will be made exhibit No. 17.

(Material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 17" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. GOERLICH. Excuse me, it was our thought that the exhibits were attached onto the opening statement.

The CHAIRMAN. They have not been made exhibits. I will make them exhibits if you want them exhibits, just for reference.

Mr. GOERLICH. We would like to have you make them all exhibits. The CHAIRMAN. This entire batch of pictures, pamphlets that were submitted along with the witness' statement, may be made in bulk exhibit No. 17. Now, then, you may proceed.

Senator CURTIS. We don't know what they are, but there is no objection to them.

Were some retirement farms also purchased?

Mr. GOSSER. Yes, Senator. This was prior to when our union was successful in getting pensions.

Senator CURTIS. Now, in this retirement farm, there were improvements made on those, were there not?

Mr. GOSSER. Surely.

Senator CURTIS. In improving this summer camp property and retirement farms, where was the hardware and other supplies purchased?

Mr. GOSSER. I would think that you would have to ask about 10 or 12 guys, and I think the point that you are trying to get at-Was some of it bought at Colonial Hardware?-and the answer is "Yes," and to what extent I don't know.

Senator MUNDT. Would you not get so far from the microphone?

Mr. GOSSER. I think he is making an inference that some was bought at Colonial Hardware, and the answer to that is "Yes," but to what extent I don't know.

Senator KENNEDY. Now, are you moving along from the original questions in regard to the purchase of this, or are you coming back to that?

Senator CURTIS. I may come back to it.

Senator KENNEDY. I wonder if I might ask one or two points of Mr. Manuel or of you or the witness in regard to the purchase of the Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club.

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY. As I understand it, there was suggestion in the interrogation that while this matter had been purchased for $9,000 and had been sold to the automotive workers group, building corporation, after some land had been disposed of for, I think, around $12,000, and it had been then sold for $20,000. Is that correct?

Senator CURTIS. Yes.