ÆäÀÌÁö À̹ÌÁö
PDF
ePub

gravia.

He did blame the officers of MR. A. H. BROWN said, he thought the Transport Department of the Admiralty could not be charged with want of energy. In his opinion, the case of the hon. Member for Glasgow that the stores were always too late, broke down on examination. The late campaign in Egypt was fought out before a base had fairly been formed. Sufficient military reasons could be adduced for this course, and therefore the charge that the Admiralty were too late could not be sustained. Looking to the tonnage employed, the result of the Expedition was one of which they ought to be proud. In all wars it always would be found that military exigencies arose against which it would be impossible to provide in a moment. In his opinion, the stopping of the transports and the preventing them entering the Suez Canal, were due to such military exigencies, and not due to mismanagement by the Transport Department of the Admiralty.

the Admiralty for not taking such vessels as the Belgravia and those of the Peninsular and Oriental Company; but it would be utter folly for the owners of those valuable vessels to take such prices as the Admiralty, under the pressure of undue economy, were at present giving. The hon. Member for Glasgow referred to a variety of things connected with the transport business-mules, ships' pumps, railway engines, telegraph wire, and Canadian boatmen. The hon. Member might have finished each story with the words "too late," and he did so by implication. But who was responsible for this constant system of "too late?" The earlier Egyptian Expedition terminated much earlier than was anticipated; but if it had not terminated as early, every one of the things mentioned by the hon. Member would have been required. The hon. Member also suggested that the Admiralty should deal direct with the shipowners when they wanted to charter vessels; but did he know that the Admiralty had quite recently as many as 1,100 steamers offered them? It would have been impossible for the owners of all these to have treated directly with the Admiralty, and such a system would be quite absurd and unreasonable. The proper way for doing it was, as the hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. Sutherland) had suggested, to employ agents to find the Government the vessels they wanted. The hon. Member for Glasgow referred to the price paid for the Storm Cock. This vessel belonged to a class of which there were not more than two or three in the country, being a very powerful twin screw-tug. It was therefore absurd to compare this vessel with trading vessels of any ordinary kind, or to expect that it could be had at the same rate. The Recovery, which belonged to the Liverpool Underwriters' Association, was a vessel with exceptional appliances for lifting heavy weights, and, had the war continued, would have been extremely useful. He doubted if there was another steamer like her in this country, and therefore it was unreasonable to expect that she could be had at as cheap a rate as vessels of an ordinary description. He thanked the House for having permitted him to reply to the very unfair and inaccurate statements made by the hon. Member for Glasgow.

MR. GILES thought that the discursive onslaught made by the hon. Member for Glasgow on the Transport Department of the Admiralty was a little exaggerated, and somewhat undeserved. The hon. Member had said the operations of the Transport Department were unbusiness-like and extravagant, and suggested that it would have been well if the Government had issued tenders to the shipowners; but after it had been stated that 1,100 vessels were offered to the Admiralty without tenders, he left it to the House to imagine how many would have been offered if advertisements for tenders had been sent out. It was not too much to say that, had they advertised, every old tub in the Kingdom would have been offered to them. As to the charge of extravagance against the Department, he could only say from his own experience that the shipowners were by no means satisfied with the prices they got, and did not think them at all extravagant. The hon. Member complained that some owners employed brokers; but just as a landowner employed agents, so also many shipowners had their business managed by brokers, and he thought the Government acted wisely in selecting in this way the vessels they considered would answer their purpose. He was bound to say, when he heard the reflections that had been made upon the Head of the Transport Department, that in his opinion they were entirely undeserved.

SIR JOHN HAY observed, that though | the stipulated speed, the owners should there were many points in the statement be fined. He also thought that the Adof the hon. Member for Glasgow with miralty were to blame in chartering the which he disagreed, yet they had been, Carthage, which was a ship of some 5,000 he thought, so well answered by the tons burden, as a hospital ship. Half hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. Suther- the capacity of that ship was taken up land) and the hon. Member for Birken- with engines; and, from his experience, head (Mr. Mac Iver), that he would not he considered that a ship with a speed again enter upon them. There was only of 10 knots would be much better as a one point upon which he felt compelled hospital ship. With regard to the fresh to say a few words. That was, the re- Expedition, he thought it would have ference that had been made to Sir been better if the ships for the conveyWilliam Mends. He had the honour ance of troops from India to the Soudan of personal acquaintance with that had been chartered through the agents officer, and could state that it was to his at home instead of through their brokers arrangements that the admirable land- in India. That would have been more ing of both the English and the French economical. He trusted the result of Armies in the Crimea was carried out. this discussion would be the removal of From that time forward Sir William abuses in connection with the DepartMends had had the greatest experience ment which were known to exist. in the transport of troops. Having held Office in the Admiralty, he could say that no officer of our own or any other Navy had had more experience or been more successful in the many operations he had conducted, including those connected with the Persian War, the Abyssinian War, and the late military operations in Egypt. He thought the House would hardly consider it consistent with his duty if he had not risen to bear this testimony to the great ability of a fellowofficer.

DR. CAMERON explained that he had specially guarded himself twice against saying one word against Admiral Mends. MR. D. J. JENKINS said that with regard to brokerage he agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Mr. Sutherland). It was impossible for all shipowners to tender their ships personally to the Admiralty; but he thought that when it could be done it would be a saving to the Public Service. He considered that the Admiralty were rather lax when employing ships on time charters in their conditions as to speed. There could be no doubt that a great many difficulties that had arisen in connection with the service had arisen from the fact that the Admiralty had chartered ships which had not proved themselves capable of attaining the speed contracted for. Some of the ships guaranteed to steam 10 or 11 knots did not make more than seven. He could not understand why the Admiralty should give such extraordinarily high prices for chartered ships. If ships accepted freight and did not come up to

MR. CAINE, speaking on behalf of the Government, said, it would take too long a time to go into all the charges which the hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) had brought forward; and, perhaps, it would be sufficient, after the speeches which had been delivered by hon. Members on both sides of the House, if he (Mr. Caine) summed up what were the real facts with regard to this Expedition. He would remind the House that this Expedition was ordered on the 21st of July; that over 65 ships were despatched by the 17th August; that everything with regard to the Expedition was over on the 13th September, the date of the victory of Tel-el-Kebir; and all that was done, although the Expedition was more or less complicated by the fact that Lord Wolseley had suddenly adopted a concealed change of base from Alexandria to Ismailia; that he stopped all the portion of the Expedition, with the exception of the troops, and allowed none of the vessels which had come under the hostile criticism of his hon. Friend to go through the Suez Canal until the troops were through; that his object was to secure the position and water supply; and that it was impossible to land any material of war until that was done. What surprised him, knowing as he did something about the chartering of vessels, was this-that under these very exceptional circumstances so few instances of mistake and neglect had been brought against the Admiralty. The hon. Member for Glasgow had, however, brought a deliberate charge, which could

not be passed by, against a well-known paid an unconscious compliment to firm of shipbrokers-Messrs. Ellis and Messrs. Ellis and Son, in saying that Son-and against a gentleman-Mr. they outwitted a leading firm engaged in Baughan-whose business it was in the the Cape trade. Any broker or any firm Admiralty to charter ships. Messrs. that could outwit his hon. Friend the Ellis and Son had been chartering ships Member for Perthshire (Sir Donald for the Admiralty since the Crimean Currie)-who was at the head of the War. They were one of the oldest firms "Castle" line of Cape steamers-must in the business, and they had obtained be very sharp-witted indeed. Now, as a special knowledge of the requirements to the question of brokerage, the hon. of the Admiralty, and it was not, there- Member seemed to be under the impresfore, to be wondered at that owners of sion that the brokerage was paid by the ships placed their vessels in the hands Government. This was not the case; of Messrs. Ellis and Son for tender to the brokerage was paid by the owners the Admiralty. The hon. Member of the ships. Out of the 72 vessels on suggested, as he (Mr. Caine) under- the list which his hon. Friend (Dr. stood, that they got an extra number of Cameron) moved for, 34 were chartered ships engaged in consequence of some from brokers and 38 from owners; and favouritism, owing to there being a if his hon. Friend examined the list, relative of Mr. Baughan in their office. he would find that the ships charThose who heard his hon. Friend's tered by the shipbrokers were not, on speech would be inclined to suppose the whole, dearer than those chartered that this relation of Mr. Baughan's was direct from the shipowners. The hon. really a partner interested in the pecu- Member had very severely referred to niary results of these transactions. As the delay in the arrival of the Carthage, a matter of fact, however, the person which was chartered at £750 a-month referred to was in the office of Messrs. for a medical transport and hospital Ellis and Son, and enjoyed the munifi- ship, and which, he said, did not arrive cent and remunerative salary of £70 at Alexandria until three days after the a-year. That would give the House an departure of the Expedition to Ismailia, idea of the influence this gentleman and that it was not available until after possessed in Messrs. Ellis and Son's two engagements had been fought, thus office. He was glad that the shipowners throwing the medical arrangements out in the House had spoken up for Mr. of gear. But he (Mr. Caine) had alBaughan, and had not left the defence ready explained that this ship was one of that gentleman to him. They had, which was stopped by Lord Wolseley; in fact, borne so striking testimony to and, indeed, instead of applying the his integrity and ability as to leave phrase "too late" to this and to other him (Mr. Caine) little to say on that sub- cases, it might be said that they arose ject. But with respect to the Messrs. from Lord Wolseley being "too soon." Ellis and Son, he must say that they It was the marvellous rapidity with were a well-known firm, having business which Lord Wolseley carried out the relations with the largest firms in the campaign, not that these vessels were Port of Liverpool and other ports. A "too late." With regard to the Notting number of ships were always placed in Hill, no doubt it had taken longer on its their hands by shipowners throughout journey than had been expected; but it the country, and they were able to sub- was by no means a costly ship for what mit by far the largest number of ships it was required to do, and if its work that came under the notice of the Trans- had to be done over again, it would proport Department of the Admiralty. In bably be done in exactly the same way. the present operations, Messrs. Ellis and As to the pier of which the hon. Member Son had furnished, only a week or two complained, because it was sent in three ago, to the Admiralty a single list of ships, that was because it could not be 75 ships, of which, as yet, only four got into one. The hon. Gentleman had had been chartered, simply because referred to the Recovery and to the liftnow, in the unfortunately depressed con- ing of locomotive engines. It must be dition of shipping, the ships offered borne in mind, however, that the Rewere greatly in excess of those available covery was half a tug and half a salvage during the previous Expedition. He no- vessel, and that the cost of building ticed that his hon. Friend, in his speech, such a vessel would have been very great.

For

In these circumstances, therefore, £600 | price paid for the vessels, as for the per month was a reasonable rate for unfortunate circumstance that the vessuch a ship. The vessel was not in- sels were useless for the purpose for tended to lift locomotives, but to lift which they were chartered; and, in spite sunken ships and lighters in the Canal. of all the denials that had been given, The hon. Gentleman had wrongly de- the fact remained that it was so. scribed the Oxenholme as an eight- instance, the Carthage was a case in and-a-half-knot ship. As a matter of point; for though it was undoubtedly a fact, however, in the course of this very fine vessel it arrived too late; and Expedition, the vessel steamed 10 knots the same remark applied to the Recovery one day and 11 knots on another. The figure quoted by the hon. Member from the Return was a wrong description. Complaint was also made that the Canadian boatmen were not brought to this country and transhipped. They were not brought to this country for the reason that they were taken to Alexandria direct in a steamer, the Ocean King, which was lying in Montreal at the time she was engaged for the service, and was not sent out from London as his hon. Friend alleged. Reference had also been made to the Storm Cock, and it was asked why £750 per month was paid for this vessel, which was also chartered from Messrs. Ellis and Son. It was a very exceptional steamer, there being only two such in existence, and this sum had been paid because the vessel could not be obtained for less. At any rate, he thought the price paid was exceedingly reasonable. He had endeavoured to go categorically through the various charges brought forward by the hon. Member. He hoped he had shown the House that, although there might have been some little delay here and there, the carrying out of this exceedingly difficult piece of transport work, if summarized by his hon. Friend, would be found to reflect the greatest credit upon the Department, and he felt sure there was not a single firm of shipowners that could have

done it so well.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY said, he felt bound to congratulate the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Caine) on the facility and rapidity with which he had acquired the habit of making a defence. One would almost think his speech had been prepared beforehand. His hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) had met the usual experience of those who exposed grievances and advocated remedies. He had been accused of and condemned for making many charges which he never made. His hon. Friend had complained not so much about the Mr. Caine

that it was not at hand when required; whilst, as to the Notting Hill, he did not think there could have been or could be greater bungling. The charges brought forward by his hon. Friend showed clearly that there was a want of cooperation between the Admiralty and the War Office. There was not that cooperation which insured the prompt and efficient discharge of work that had to be done. No doubt, the Expedition was successful; but anyone, in reading over the evidence and noting the mishaps which occurred, as well as the want of organization indicated by the evidence brought before the Committee, would see that they had reason to congratulate themselves that the Expedition was so successful as it really turned out to be, for it was perfectly certain, owing to this want of harmony and divided responsibility, that if we had had to face in Egypt an enemy worthy of the British arms, the result might have been different. He was glad that the question had been raised, because he believed his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow had done good service in bringing it before the House and the country, and he thought if the Admiralty would adopt the plan practised by the firm over which his hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Mr. Sutherland) presided it would be advantageous. He knew for a fact that great complaint had been made by the shipowners in the City, that no vessels, however good they might be, could be chartered except through one particular firm of brokers. He could not see that any harm would result from the Government adopting the practice of allowing the public to know that they were open to receive tenders for the chartering of vessels; because it seemed to him that that was the most advantageous way of carrying out work of this nature. He hoped that when the new Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Caine) brought his business qualifications to bear on the chartering of vessels and the purchase of

stores, he would not, at the end of his | Government for several months during official career, have so many failures to account for and regret as had been disclosed in connection with the Egyptian Campaign of 1882.

DR. FARQUHARSON said, he could not help expressing his sense of the amusement he experienced at the judicious vagueness of the defence adopted by the Representative of the Admiralty.

It seemed to him that that defence dealt more with the arguments not brought forward by the hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr.Cameron) than with the specific accusations which he had brought forward. The evidence upon which his hon. Friend based his case was given before the Select Committee on Transport and Commissariat which sat last Session; and, although he (Dr. Farquharson) agreed with those hon. Members who believed that the war had been a great and a brilliant success, he thought that, as had been said, anyone who had read the evidence taken before that Committee would feel convinced that that success would have been still more marked had the arrangements entered into by the Admiralty in regard to chartering merchant vessels been better carried out. He did not think that his hon. Friend the Junior Lord of the Admiralty had made out a good defence upon this point. At all events, it was quite clear that the present system was capable of great improvement, and he quite agreed that his hon. Friend (Dr. Cameron) had done good service in bringing it forward. He (Dr. Farqu harson) maintained that, through these defects, great suffering had been endured by wounded and invalid men in consequence of the non-arrival in time of the ships conveying the hospital appliances and commissariat. He had heard tonight with some surprise that the Committee, of which he had the honour of being a Member last year, was not to be re-appointed during the present year. He regretted that step, for he believed that the re-appointment of that Committee would be a great advantage to the Service.

MR. GOURLEY said, he had hoped that the hon. Gentleman the Junior Lord of the Admiralty would have expressed his intention to confer some mark of honour upon the masters and officers of the Mercantile Marine who had been engaged in the service of the

the Egyptian Campaign, and had conducted the Transport Service so satisfactorily, and without any casualty whatever. He thought that the hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) had made out a very clear case in favour of the re-appointment of the Transport and Commissariat Committee of last year, and had done good service in the matter. He should support his hon. Friend if he went to a division. If the present system of chartering vessels was not based upon favouritism, it certainly was a very bad system, for the Transport Department of the Admiralty did not always engage those ships which were best adapted for transport, and in many cases they had not chosen the fastest. He thought that in all cases, excepting periods of severe pressure, ships should, as with the Emigration Commissioners, be engaged by public tender. He did not think that the defence of the Admiralty with regard to Messrs. Ellis and Son had been made out satisfactorily, because the Admiralty could, under the terms of the Post Office Mail Contracts demand the use of ships so employed from their owners.

Question put, and agreed to.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," again proposed.

NAVY-STATE OF THE NAVY-THE

SINKING FUND.-OBSERVATIONS.

MR. MARRIOTT, in rising, according to Notice, to call attention to the present state of the Navy, and to move a Resolution, said: Sir, the subject of the deficiencies of the Navy has been for some time past well before the public. Special attention has been called to the subject by certain of the evening papers; and it has been discovered, in the last two or three years, that Members of the Government are particularly amenable to any expressions of opinion given in the evening papers. I do not know why they should make a distinction between morning and evening papers; but, practically, the Government has been very much carried on lately by what I may call Government by the evening papers. Hon. Members will recollect how, a short time ago, there appeared a series of articles on The Bitter Cry in one of the evening papers, and that the Govern

« ÀÌÀü°è¼Ó »