valuable to the Service as the time he | that an opportunity should be given for spent in it with a commission; in fact, full discussion on the question of ordhe (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) thought it nance, and we shall make the best grossly unfair that these men who, by arrangement in our power for such a rising to the position of Quartermasters, discussion to take place. It may be that had given ample proof of their ability the most convenient opportunity will be and efficiency, should not have the whole when the Navy Estimates are under of the time they had spent in the Army consideration. If, however, such an in any capacity taken into account. He opportunity should not arise, we will thought every year those men had spent endeavour to bring in the Army Estiin the Service, whether as private sol- mates again at a time when such a disdiers, non-commissioned officers, or com- cussion on the subject may be taken. missioned officers, should be taken into Well, the right hon. and gallant Gentleaccount by the authorities when the man (Colonel Stanley) also asked me question of pensions came before them. whether the administrative authorities He had promised the noble Marquess had anticipated and provided for the (the Marquess of Hartington) that he double drain that will take place would not deal with this subject at any whenever the campaign is at an end considerable length, and he was anxious and the men detained in the Reserve not to break his promise. There was are released? Of course, that has been just this other point he would bring to present to our minds. With reference the notice of the noble Marquess to this point, I stated, I think, the other namely, that he thought Quartermasters day that measures are already being should be allowed to reach the rauk of taken to largely increase the depôts of Major, and that when they retired they certain regiments which have battalions should be allowed to reach the rank of abroad; and in the other cases, when the Lieutenant-Colonel. transfer of men from the Reserve is suspended, it will possibly be necessary to make a corresponding increase in the Home battalions. A great deal has been said in the course of the discussion as to the organization of the Cavalry. That is a part of the organization of the Army which I admit has not come so much under my attention as the recruiting of the Infantry. It is perfectly true, no doubt, as has been stated by the hon. and gallant Member for South Hants (Sir Frederick Fitz-Wygram), that although, no doubt, the short-service system has given more trouble and labour to Cavalry officers than to Infantry officers, yet we have heard less complaint of this system from those Cavalry officers than from the others. So far as I am aware, no alteration in Cavalry organization has been made; and I am under the impression that the present organization, which has been in force for some years, has given general satisfaction to Cavalry officers. I understand that one of the complaints of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) was that, in the present establishment of horses, a Cavalry regiment could not embark for foreign service without obtaining a large number of animals from other sources. always has been the case, I think, and is the result of the system that has been THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: So many points have been touched on in the course of this discussion that I am afraid it will be absolutely impossible for me to make a reply to more than a very few of them. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Stanley) expressed great anxiety as to when an opportunity would be given for a full discussion upon the proposals of the Government with regard to the Army. It is not possible to predict that the opportunity will occur on the Vote of Credit, on which a political issue may be raised, which may therefore render a discussion upon points of detail inconvenient. If such a discussion cannot then be held, an opportunity will arise on the Reserves Vote, or some other Vote, when the Vote of Credit for the Establishment is within full knowledge of the Committee. We will undertake that such an opportunity will be given within a reasonable time. I trust, however, that that opportunity may be made use of really for the purpose of discussing the actual proposals of the Government, for I think the discussion we have had tonight has been, to a great extent, a repetition of discussions we have had previously, and that it would be well to avoid, as much as possible, a repetition of to-night's debate. It is reasonable Mr. T. P. O'Connor That deliberately adopted. The hon. and gal- | talions abroad. I have told the Comlant Gentleman the Member for South mittee what the organization has been Hampshire, who is acknowledged to be able to do in sending a force to the a high authority on Cavalry organiza- Soudan and another to South Africa, tion generally, and especially on Cavalry and the manner in which those Forces horses, says he does not object to the have been disposed of. I contend that establishment of horses being consider- that number of men could not have been ably less than the establishment of sent out with the rapidity with which it men. The remaining complaint appears has been sent out, and with as little to be that a considerable number of confusion and disturbance of the system, the men in Cavalry regiments are very at any previous period in our military young soldiers, and not fit to embark history. My hon. and gallant Friend on foreign service. I do not know in has failed to give proof that the regiwhat way that can be avoided. It has ments that have been sent out for seralways been contemplated that a Cavalry vice in Africa during the past summer regiment embarking for foreign service and autumn have been sent out in an should leave a certain number of its re- inefficient condition, or that they have cruits behind it for the purpose of form- not been perfectly capable of performing a depôt. The only question is, what ing the duties they have been sent out is to be the strength of the establish- to perform. The hon. and gallant Genment of a Cavalry regiment? It may tleman the Member for East Aberdeenbe, though it is a question upon which shire (Sir Alexander Gordon) has again. I do not speak with much confidence- complained of the form of the Estispeaking upon it, as I do, after only a mates. I think upon this subject we moment's notice-it may be that it would have given all the information it is posbe better, as the hon. and gallant Gen- sible to give. The hon. and gallant tleman the Member for South Hamp- Gentleman wants a comparison drawn shire suggests, that we should have between the different items in the norfewer Cavalry regiments with a larger mal Estimates, and put with the Esticomplement than to be satisfied with the mates of last year, including the Supplepresent organization. I have never, mentary grant. It is impossible to comhowever, heard of any such motive as ply with that request, because the comthat alleged for the arrangement. It parison that he requires would be one has been suggested to me that the most altogether contrary to the fact. The convenient way of bringing about what provision that is asked for this year can is desired would be to send out two only be put in comparison with the provisquadrons of Cavalry regiments. That sion that was granted last year. Then the appears to me to be a very practicable hon. and gallant Gentleman complained arrangement, as it would enable two of the gradual decrease of the Militia. thoroughly efficient squadrons to be sent He was not in the House when I made out, and the younger men, or less effi- my Statement, and I do not know from cient, could be left at home. The hon. what figures he has quoted; but ccrand gallant Gentleman the Member for tainly he cannot have referred to the West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) Report of the Inspector General of Resays that I ought to have taken the op- cruiting. Appended to General Bulportunity to have proposed a large per- wer's Report was a Return showing the manent increase to the Army. The hon. increase and decrease in the Militia and gallant Member has said that the since 1884. From that Return it seems battalions at home are, and always have that, as a matter of fact, there has been been, deficient, and that the wants of an increase. On the 1st of January, the battalions abroad cannot be sup- 1884, the number of Militia was 99,440, plied. The hon. and gallant Gentle- whereas on the 1st of January, 1885, man has repeated that statement to- it was 104,340. I do not know, Sir, night, having made it before. I have from what information the hon. and never contended that the battalions at gallant Gentleman arrives at the conhome are efficient for immediate service; clusion that the Militia is wasting away, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman did when it has increased in the manner I not bring forward any proof of the ac- point out. curacy of his assertion that the battalions at home are unable to supply the bat SIR ALEXANDER GORDON: I quoted from a Militia Return dated 31st December last. That Return and that | hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. from which the noble Marquess is quot- Causton), and when the Financial Secreing do not agree; and if he will refer tary to the War Office (Sir Arthur to the Return I speak of he will find Hayter) replied. I do not think it is that what I have stated is accurate. possible for me to add anything to what THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: has been said on this matter. It appears My Return is probably the right one. to me that the position of these officers If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will has been fully considered both by the tell me what figures he refers to I will present and by the late Government, and explain them. I have here a Return for I fail to see that there is any sufficient the year 1884, and according to that it ground for incurring so large an expenappears there has not been a decrease, diture of public money as the hon. Membut an increase, in the total strength of ber has shown would be involved by the Militia. As to Militia officers, it is agreeing to the demand made. The hon. well known that the great inducement Gentleman complains that they are not to gentlemen to enter the Militia is the permitted to count the whole of their prospect of obtaining commissions in service while in the ranks in reckoning the Line. The chances of obtaining the time they have been in the Army for these commissions in the Army, through pensions. Well, my hon. and gallant the Militia, are greater now than they Friend (Sir Arthur Hayter) has already were in former years. My hon. and pointed out that that is a rule that does gallant Friend the Member for the not apply to Quartermasters only, but to County of Cork (Colonel Colthurst) commissioned officers of all grades who said that the measures that have have risen from the ranks, and that it is been taken to induce the men to extend no grievance attaching only to Quartertheir service have been a failure. I masters. Seeing that that is the case, think, however, my hon. and gallant and that this is no grievance attaching Friend has not quite accurately appre- to Quartermasters alone, I cannot see hended what has been said. In the why an exception should be made in numbers I quoted I gave the numbers their favour. I think I have referred of men who had rejoined the Colours to a few, but I am afraid to only a very from the Reserve. They were 1,400 few, of the questions that have been put the number who rejoined the ranks be- to me to-night. I am afraid I have tween the 10th of August and the 1st passed by many of them; but many of of January of this year. But no great the hon. Gentlemen who have addressed effort has been made to induce men to questions to me evidently do not attach return; and, as I have already stated, much importance to the answers, as they the men were only permitted to rejoin have not thought it necessary to be under certain conditions-that is to say, present. they had two years' additional service to give. Under these circumstances 1,400 men joined, and, looking at the circumstances of the case, I think that is quite as many as we could have anticipated would have joined. Then my hon. and gallant Friend mixed up with that question of volunteering from the Reserve the question of extension of service. Now, Sir, I stated that the system which was established in 1882-3 had been permanently adopted. We are not able to state yet how many men will avail themselves of the permission to extend their service abroad; the Return has not yet been received. Last year 1,500 men did so. The hon. Member for Galway (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) has just referred again to the complaints of the Quartermasters. He was not in the House when this was brought on by the Sir Alexander Gordon SIR HENRY FLETCHER said, he wished to remind the noble Marquess that he had said nothing with regard to the abolition of the £5 gratuity paid to men with the long-service medal. He thought for the sake of the Service, and particularly for the sake of those who felt themselves aggrieved in this matter, that an answer should be given. SIR ARTHUR HAYTER said, that the hon. Baronet referred to the question of the taking away the gratuity of £5 granted with the medals to the men who had served 18 years. The gratuity would cease on the 30th of June. The reason it had been decided to abolish it was because when deferred pay was granted for a second period of service it was thought that the gratuity should cease. There was a difference between non-commissioned officers and men, because the THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot allow the hon. Member to contest my ruling. former were granted deferred pay during | had it; but I called both for the Ayes the first period in 1876, and in 1881 and Noes-therefore the hon. Gentleman it was conceded to them that they should is too late. I say the Ayes have it. have deferred pay for the second period MR. LABOUCHERE: I wish, Sir, to of service also, which boon was not con- say that I roseceded to the men. Retiring non-commissioned officers, therefore, would get £63 instead of the smaller sum. The men who enlisted before 1881, and who went on for 18 years' service, having understood they came into the Army on a definite understanding, and enlisted expecting to receive the gratuity, were, of course, an exception to the general rule, and he should be happy to consider their case again. LORD BURGHLEY wished to know whether the noble Marquess could give him an answer to the question which he had addressed to him with reference to the Militia? THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON : MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I beg, Sir, to move, "That you report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON : The Government, Sir, agree to that Motion. Motion agreed to. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow. EAST INDIA (LOAN). COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."-(Mr. J. K. Cross.) MR. TOMLINSON said, he had no desire to detain the House; but he thought that this Resolution with regard to the East India Loan was of such importance that it ought to be accompanied by some explanation as to its object. MR. J. K. CROSS said, a Select Committee had reported last year in favour Perhaps it will be more convenient to of a considerable extension of railways discuss the details of the Militia on the in India, and the money asked for was Militia Vote. It is impossible in a gecommendations of that Committee. He for the purpose of carrying out the reneral discussion to give details. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlinson), the Committee will agree that I can hardly be expected to know the circumstances of the uniforming of a certain regiment at Malta; but I can promise that inquiries shall be made into the subject. would not enter into any detailed ex- Question put, and agreed to. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise in the United Kingdom any sum or sums of vice of the Government of India, on the security money not exceeding £10,000,000, for the ser of the Revenues of India. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. SUPPLY.-REPORT. Resolutions [16th March] reported. MR. SEXTON said, it would be in the memory of hon. Members that a man Now, 20 days had elapsed since the occurrence of the accident, and 16 days had elapsed since the District Inspector announced in the public Press that it was not an outrage, but an accidental occurrence. He (Mr. Sexton) said that there had been ample time for the Crown and its agents to consider whether there was or was not sufficient evidence to put these constables on their trial for conspiracy to defeat the administration of justice. The constables had denied at first that they were in the house at all, although they were subsequently compelled to admit that they were there, and one of them had since admitted that he had induced the family to endorse the story, and that he had fired the shots outside the house. Well, the Lord Chief Baron was confronted with these facts, and in addressing the Grand Jury how did he deal with the case? He said, whatever might be the question as to the accidental or other character of the death of Murphy, there was no reason to doubt that a grievous misdemeanour had been committed. He said that it was a lamentable thing that members of the Constabulary Force should have deceived their superiors in a matter of this kind; that officers paid to support the due administration of named Dennis Murphy was shot in his house at Castleisland, and that he died, from the effects of the injury received, in two days. Two constables reported that an outrage had been committed, and that shots had been fired from the outside of the house, and the District Inspector on going to the house found that a window had been broken. However, on closer examination, he found that the outrage could not have been committed from the outside of the house, because, judging from the position which the man occupied, the shots could not have been fired through the window in which the hole was made. In the course of two days it turned out that the two constables were in the house of Dennis Murphy, and that Murphy had been wounded by the discharge of one of their rifles, after which the two constables went out of the house and fired shots in order to create the impression that an outrage had been committed. They then induced the family of the wounded man, and the wounded man himself, to support their story, and it appeared that the circumstances were such that he would have corroborated any story which they chose to present. It was strange to him, under the circumstances, that the Inspector forwarded to the County Inspector a Report describ-justice should have endeavoured to deing the case as an outrage, and that he caused to be arrested 12 men at night, one of them having been dragged out of the house in which his father was dying; after that application was made to the magistrate, and a remand obtained. He wished to impress on the House that the Government had not taken the course which the desire to do justice in this case would seem to demand. The Coroner's Jury appeared to think that the killing of Murphy was purely accidental, and the Resident Magistrate appeared to have been of the same opinion. But there remained another question gravely concerning the administration of justice; and that was, whether one of the constables invented, or whether both constables conspired to fabricate a false story for the purpose of producing an impression that an outrage had been committed, and thereby to impede the administration of justice? There could be no rational doubt that the constables did invent and propagate that story. On Friday last the Lord Chief Baron of Ireland opened the Assizes at Derry. Mr. Sexton feat and misdirect the administration of it. He expressed his deep regret, and said that it was most unfortunate that the Crown had not sent up before the Grand Jury any Bill whatever which would have enabled them to investigate whether or not this gross offence had been committed. He (Mr. Sexton) said that within his memory no such language of censure had been applied to the Crown agents in Ireland by any Judge on the Bench; and he wished to ask what steps the Crown intended to take for the administration of justice in this case? For his part, he thought they ought to take very stern measures indeed. This was due from them, first, to those members of the Constabulary Force who desired to do their duty honestly; secondly, they owed it to the public at large, who in Ireland found it especially difficult to procure the administration of justice; and, in the third place, they owed it to the people of Castleisland, who had by accident been saved from becoming the victims of an atrocious conspiracy, and from having |