their duty to occupy time in raising discussions upon all these cases. | of Londonderry was an extraordinary one. It had been stated that the Solicitor General for Ireland sent a gentleman to represent him when the Commissioners held a Court for the purpose of considering the divisions of the county. He believed the hon. and and learned Gentleman objected to the present scheme, which savoured of jerrymandering. The hon. and learned Gentleman ought in that case to use his great influence with the Government in order to get a just and equal division of the county which he represented. He hoped the Solicitor General for Ireland would state his views upon the subject. The original MR. KENNY said, it was lamentable that the borough representation of Ireland should be practically wiped out. The proposal of the Government would reduce the borough representation of the counties of Limerick and Clare to one Member. The Government scheme only retained Members for 15 Irish boroughs. It was not calculated to improve the condition of the Irish boroughs to deprive them of Parliamentary representation. He was the more desirous of stating the case of Limerick City in the House, because the instructions to the Boundary Commissioners made it THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR impossible for the case to be presented IRELAND (Mr. WALKER) said, that as in the Court. The Corporation of Lime- the hon. Member had referred to him rick had forwarded to him a series of he would state what he knew of the statements in support of their claim that matter. Derry was undoubtedly not the their representation should remain un- last case which the Boundary Commischanged. It was an an ancient city, sioners considered, although, being one and had been the seat of several Parlia- of the counties to the extreme North, it ments. Its manufactures, trade, and was among the last. What advantage commerce entitled it to retain its pre- any division, or portion of a division, sent representation. Many inconsistent could attain by being last considered, arrangements had been made, appa- he could not conceive. rently with no other object than that of scheme for the division of the county of distributing the strength of the Nation- Derry was manifestly framed from the alist Party; and it was only natural maps of the Ordnance Department, and that the strongest protests should be without local knowledge. The county made against the undisguised jerry- of Londonderry, amongst other baronies, mandering of which the Commissioners comprised three which were parallel had been made the instruments. The with each other, and included within course taken by the Commissioners in this area was a large proportion of the Donegal was an audacious piece of jerry-Roman Catholic element of the county. mandering. In that county districts The proposed division of the county were to be brought together which were divided the three baronies. Further, it practically as far apart as Scotland and divided three parishes. It left a mounIreland. The Commissioners had actu- tain range between one portion and anally joined in one constituency two dis-other, and left totally out of view simitricts which were separated by Lough Swilly. As to the Universities, whatever were the original motives for giving them representation, these motives had long since disappeared. The original intention was that learned men might be sent to Parliament to assist in promoting education; but that had ceased to be necessary now for a long time. He found that for the last 85 years the Representatives of Dublin University had been lawyers. As to Armagh, the county had been divided quite regardless of the instructions to the Commissioners, and at the instigation of local Tories for party purposes, and more inconvenient and absurd divisions could not have been devised. The case larity of constituency. That division (Redistribution) Bill. beral Association was not adopted, but | Now, if he were disposed to make a that put forward by the Conservative charge of partizanship against the ComAssociation was followed. The Commissioners, he thought he had some missioners had adhered to the rule laid down for the Commissioners; they observed geographical compactness; they did not divide parishes as in the proposed scheme; and they observed regularity. They left the mountain range as a division between two districts, and they had passing through each division a central line of railway connecting the particular division with one centre. Objections were made as to other divisions which he did not intend to enter upon; but, as regarded Donegal, he was forced to the conclusion that hon. Members below the Gangway, when the result was against them upon one ground, used the same ground in another case in an opposite direction. For his own part, he honestly believed that in the schemes which had been approved the Commissioners had observed the condition of geographical compactness, had acted up to their instructions, and had not been influenced by Party or political relations. ground for it, because, though the Redistribution Bill fixed a boundary and gave Belfast four Members, yet the Commissioners had needlessly extended the boundaries, taking from the County Antrim many thousands and from the County Down a considerable number, thereby, as his friends alleged, weakening the Conservative interest in both counties; but though he had their complaint and others about the counties, yet he would be slow to assume or make the charge of partizanship against the Commissioners. He would not follow the hon. Member for Monaghan into the subject of the respective numbers of the Nationalists and Loyalists that would be returned under the new law. The hon. Member had by far overstated the number of Loyalists that would be returned. He (Mr. Ewart) repeated that though by numbers they were entitled to onethird of the representation—that was a simple question of arithmetic — yet it would be impossible for them to return even one-sixth. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had referred to a letter of Lord Salisbury in which he spoke of the spirit in which the Boundary Commissioners should proceed in their work. Well, the only construction that could be put on that was that it meant a spirit of favouritism. [Laughter by Home Rulers.] Hon. Mem - meant by the words was that the duty of the Commissioners ought to be conducted in a spirit of fairness. For himself and the Party with which he acted he totally disclaimed any desire that tho duty should be discharged in any other spirit. MR. EWART said, he would not occupy the attention of the House more than a few seconds. Indeed, the debate had come on him by surprise, and the long speeches which they had heard seemed to him as only suited to the Committee stage of the Bill. He would not have intervened at that time; but the case of Belfast had been so pointedly referred to by the hon. Member for Mo-bers laughed; but all the noble Lord naghan (Mr. Healy), and noticed by the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill and others, that he felt it incumbent on him to correct some inaccuracies in the speech of the hon. Member. The Solicitor General had characterized that speech as "more amusing than accurate." He would designate it as one of singular exaggeration. The hon. Member, in his effort to sustain the charge against the Boundary Commission of partizanship, had made the astounding statement that, whereas Belfast was entitled to only two Members, the Commissioners had so enlarged the boundaries as to entitle it to four Members. Now, the House would be enabled to form their opinion as to the value of the statement. The Redistribution Bill, as the House knew, gave Belfast four Members, and indicated a boundary with sufficient population for that purpose. The Solicitor General for Ireland MR. A. R. D. ELLIOT said, there had been a great deal of discussion this afternoon on the subject of redistribution in Ireland. He would not venture on that dangerous ground; but before Mr. Speaker left the Chair, he would like to say a few words with reference to what had happened with regard to the scheme of redistribution of seats in Scotland. As the House might be aware, a certain amount of dissatisfaction was caused by the inefficient way in which redistribution, and especially the grouping of boroughs, was dealt with by the Bill. It was felt by all Scotch Liberals that the system of grouping of boroughs was altogether out of date, and not calculated to answer the requirements that were now necessary in Scotland. Some time ago the President of the Local Government Board gave out in the House to the Scotch Members that if they would consider amongst themselves what would be desirable and right in the matter of redistribution, and more especially with regard to the grouping of Scotch boroughs, and making the principle more satisfactory than at present, the Government would be willing to take the matter into their consideration. With that view the Scottish Members had got into relation with the Lord Advocate, who, at once responding to their desires, had done his best to frame an improved scheme. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had gone into the subject very elaborately, and produced a scheme which he (Mr. A. Elliot) thought an immense improvement upon the scheme proposed by the Bill. The Lord Advocate had then asked the Scottish Members to meet him in a private room in this House, and talk over the scheme which he had prepared. That scheme contained very considerable changes from the scheme of the Bill, and it was gone into clause by clause and word by word by the Scottish Members together. He might say that, although the Scottish Members did not approve of all the Lord Advocate's suggestions, still they accepted and thoroughly approved of nine-tenths of them; and he thought those changes would be adopted nemine contradicente by the Scottish Members. At all events, the Government was now in possession, not only of the draft scheme of the Lord Advocate, but of that scheme with the views of the Scottish Members upon it. One of the proposals which he, for one, supported very heartily was to put the villages which had hitherto been put out of the counties back into the counties. He said "villages," because the small burghs with which the Lord Advocate proposed to deal were towns with less than 1,000 inhabitants, and the Lord Advocate thought it desirable that they should go back into the counties of which they formed a part. He should not have taken up the time of the House by bringing this matter before it if he had found that Amendments had been VOL. CCXCV. [THIRD SERIES.] put down by the Lord Advocate or some other Member of the Government to carry out the recommendations of the Lord Advocate, endorsed by the great majority of the Scottish Members. There were some matters which required to be taken into consideration with other matters, one being the inclusion of Portobello and Musselburgh in the City of Edinburgh. What could be simpler than for the Lord Advocate to have put down the proposal to deal with Portobello-and, so far as he knew, there was no opposition to it-that Portobello and Musselburgh should be grouped with Edinburgh? He hoped he was not asking too much of the Government when he asked them to tell the House what they proposed to do to carry out the proposals of their own Lord Advocate, approved by the majority of Scottish Members. If, as he did not doubt, they intended to give effect to these recommendations, he hoped they would put their Amendments on the Paper at the earliest moment, so that they might know what they had to deal with. MR. DAWSON complained that the towns in Ireland and the industrial interests connected with them had been almost entirely sacrificed to the counties. In future only 15 towns in Ireland would be represented; and how, under such circumstances, were the voices of trade and industry to made themselves. heard. He could not refer to this matter without expressing his gratification at the deep interest which the hon. Baronet (Sir Eardley Wilmot) took in the prosperity and progress of Irish industry; and he could assure the hon. Baronet that his efforts in that direction had been highly appreciated in Ireland. only wished that Englishmen of that character could be multiplied. He especially pleaded for a reconsideration of the case of the City of Limerick, to which another Member ought to be given. The population of the city amounted to 145,000, or 45,000 beyond the sum which entitled it to the two Members which it now enjoyed. Indeed, by a reasonable extension of the boundary of the city it would be easy to procure the requisite number of additional inhabitants to entitle the borough to a third Member. In the interests of commerce and industry, it was very desirable that the representation of Limerick should be thus increased. Its sentimental claims to [Third Night.] C consideration were also very great. Its MR. TREVELYAN said, he would express the hope that the House would consent to go into Committee on the Bill that afternoon. That was the anxious wish of the Government, and the moderate length at which hon. Members spoke was an indication, he thought, of their desire in the same direction. He thought the Question which had been asked by the hon. Member for Roxburghshire (Mr. A. Elliot) was a very reasonable one indeed. The Government had most carefully examined the scheme prepared by the Lord Advocate in the light which had been thrown upon it by the observations and expressions of opinion of the Scottish Members; and they had come to this conclusion-that the difference of opinion that existed on one or two of the points contained in that scheme would almost certainly be fatal to those points; and the impossibility of carrying out those points would very seriously endanger the others. In endeavouring to revise the scheme, it was brought at every moment before the notice of the Government; and the more the House examined the scheme the more it would be brought before the notice of the House, for the scheme was a very carefully constructed map-he might almost call it a puzzle, but it would not be a puzzle if it were carefully examinedand it would be seen that it was almost impossible to displace any one piece of it without displacing the others. Still, the Government was desirous to meet the suggestions and criticisms of Scottish Members, and embody, as far as possible, the results of their deliberations in Amendments. Notably, they earnestly hoped to meet the case of the burgh of Leith, which was, perhaps, the strongest case of the many which had been put forward by the Lord Advocate and viewed favourably by the Scottish Members. He would respond to the appeal Mr. Dawson In of his hon. Friend by saying that they The hon. Member for being that small boroughs could be dealt with the county of Armagh. The grouped together as in Scotland. He reason why the Commissioners had alwas not going to argue against that pro-tered their original scheme with regard posal; but he only referred to it to show to that county was, if he might be perthat hon. Members below the Gangway mitted to say so, because they had made on the other side, when they complained a mistake in the division of the county of the small amount of representation in the first instance, and they were comgiven to the urban element in Ireland, pelled to rectify it. Each of the divisions ought to be careful what they were of Armagh averaged 51,000, 52,000, doing, because they were opening a door and 53,000; but it was found that North and letting out a stream of water which, Armagh contained fewer than these, and under certain circumstances, might be- in order to bring that division up to the come a serious flood. The towns of requisite number, a portion of South Drogheda and Limerick had been spe- Armagh was cut off and added to it, becially mentioned in the course of the cause the latter was a mountainous disdebate. With reference to the first of trict. The map of Armagh was one these, he thought it would be at once which carried conviction with it, and he seen that no exceptional favour could be earnestly wished, as a justification for shown it. Because the inhabitants of a the policy of the Commissioners, that town were only a little below 15,000 in the House would look at the map of number, it could not be excepted from the Armagh, and see exactly how the moungeneral slaughter. He knew of a town tainous district, with its particular agriin England which was supposed to have cultural industry, was separated from come within Schedule I. of the Bill, be- the flat country, with its agricultural cause at the time of the Census a larger industry. Then, the hon. Member had number than usual of its inhabitants referred to Dublin. In that case, the were pursuing the avocation of deep-course pursued by the Commissioners sea fishing, the weather at the time favouring that pursuit. If they were once to make any exceptions from the operation of Schedule I., they would never know where to stop. The hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Dawson) had pleaded that Limerick should retain her second seat, because she had been famous in peace and in war. Canterbury and Durham had also been famous in these respects; and why should Limerick be treated differently from these places, each of which would lose a seat? The City of London, like the City of Limerick, would lose half of her representa-population was close; while each divition. Then the hon. Member referred to the City of London, and said that it was treated differently from Limerick. Now, how had Limerick been treated? One Member had been taken away from Limerick, but two Members had been taken away from London. The Government had treated Limerick exactly as they had treated London. He had referred to this question of the Irish boroughs, because it had not been dealt with previously from the Treasury Bench. He would not go back to the question of the counties, because that had been discussed by two of his Colleagues. The hon. Member for Ennis, however, had referred especially to the way in which the Boundary Commissioners had was unusual, because the position of the county of Dublin was extremely unusual. It was one of those very rare counties in Ireland which resembled a good many English counties. There were three sorts of population-the population which lived in the city, the population which lived in the country, and the population which lived largely and thickly in the suburbs. The county had to be divided in two. Divided by the population, it was necessary to make a large division where the population was scanty, and a small division where the sion had been made as compact as possible. If the Irish Members would look at the maps of Northumberland and Durham on the Tyne side, they would see that the new divisions in those counties corresponded exactly to the divisions in Dublin County. In conclusion, he earnestly trusted that hon. Members would view this question of Ireland as a whole, and would try, as far as possible, to put out of their minds any idea that any conscious effort had been made not to give fair play to any party in Ireland. He hoped, also, that they would see the advantage of settling these questions at a period when political passions connected with elections had been lulled by the passing of the L Third Night.] C 2 |