Mr. RUBIN. We started the contracts at that time and they rejected the preproduction samples, or the sample lot. This was a good many years ago, and I don't remember the intimate details. But I came over to Brooklyn and they showed me that the garments were not acceptacle on a preproduction basis and what was wrong with them. They said the rejections were of a minor basis and, with more careful scrutiny at the plant could be overcome.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever go out with him socially?

Mr. RUBIN. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he ever come to visit you?

Mr. RUBIN. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you never gave him an envelope with any money in it?

Mr. RUBIN. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. KENNEDY. What about Mr. Sachs? What conversation did you have with Mr. Sachs?

Mr. RUBIN. Practically identical. I don't know his title, but when I would have a rejection, he would be the fellow who would take me back to where the garments were after the rejection.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever go out socially with him?

Mr. RUBIN. No, I did not, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he ever come to your office?

Mr. RUBIN. No, he did not, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever offer him any gift or any money?
Mr. RUBIN. No, I did not, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was the name of the third one?

Mr. RUBIN. Mr. Goldman.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know what his first name was?

Mr. RUBIN. Julius.

Mr. KENNEDY. What conversations did you have with him?

Mr. RUBIN. I asked him what was wrong with the garments. In fact, one specific case was that they were rejecting on open seams, and I asked him his advice, "How do you suggest we can overcome a situation such as that," and he gave me his opinion.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he suggest?

Mr. RUBIN. He suggested more careful plant inspection, intermediate inspection in the manufacturing itself. He felt that the defects that were showing up were of a minor consequence, and that with proper inspection at the plant we could overcome these rejections.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you talk to these three inspectors at approximately the same time?

Mr. RUBIN. I can't recall that, sir. It may have been three different times.

Mr. KENNEDY. This last inspector, did you ever take him out socially? I am talking about Mr. Goldman.

Mr. RUBIN. To the best of my knowledge, no, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You never went out with him socially?

Mr. RUBIN. I doubt it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he ever come visit you?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, he did.

Mr. KENNEDY. He came to visit you?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, he did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Where did he visit you?

Mr. RUBIN. He visited me at the offices of Bonita Originals.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was the purpose of his visit?

Mr. RUBIN. He came to see me with reference to the Ansonia Garment Co. employing him as the chief inspector or chief of inspection in the factory.

Mr. KENNEDY. He came to you. Did you know he was coming to visit you?

Mr. RUBIN. I can't recall the details. I know he was there, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You cannot recall?

Mr. RUBIN. He must have called me before he came, because I wasn't in all the time.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you invite him, or did he ask to come?

Mr. RUBIN. I can't recall, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You must remember who instituted this conversation, whether you invited him, whether you wanted him to come up to the office, or whether he wanted to come to the office.

Mr. RUBIN. He wanted to come to the office, because he wanted to explain to me and talk to me about how he felt how we could overcome these difficulties we were having.

Mr. KENNEDY. You thought it best for him to come to your office? Mr. RUBIN. I can't explain, sir, whether I invited him to come or whether he offered to come up. We were in serious difficulty of meeting payrolls at that time and it was very important that we meet these minor defects.

Senator BENDER. What was the time of that? What was the month or the year?

Mr. RUBIN. I can't recall. It probably was some time early in 1952. But I am very bad on dates, sir. I just don't recall.

Senator BENDER. I think you are very bad on dates.

Mr. RUBIN. What was that?

Senator BENDER. I say I agree with that, that you are very bad on dates.

Mr. KENNEDY. He came to your office and you cannot remember whether you invited him to come or whether he asked to come? That is your testimony?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He came to your office and what did you discuss at the office?

Mr. RUBIN. We discussed the problem that we had at the plant. Mr. KENNEDY. Would you give us the details on it?

Mr. RUBIN. The problems were garments that we were producing and having minor defects, and being rejected.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you say to him, "You have got to pass these garments. We have to get it or otherwise we will go bankrupt"? Mr. RUBIN. No, sir. I did not.

Mr. KENNEDY. You did not say anything like that?

Mr. RUBIN. No. I told him we were in bad shape financially and I was very anxious to cure the problem.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you discuss anything else up there at the office? Mr. RUBIN. Mostly his job. Or his wanting a job with Ansonia. Mr. KENNEDY. He wanted a job?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he ask you? What did he say to you?

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Mr. RUBIN. He said that if we could employ him at the plant, with his background and knowledge of inspection, he could probably see that these garments would come through without these defects.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did you tell him?

Mr. RUBIN. I told him that employing him at the factory was not my function and I would advise the people at the factory and make arrangements for him to come up to the plant some time to see if he would be suitable for them.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he do then?

Mr. RUBIN. I don't understand the question.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was there any discussion among the two of you of if he did go to work, how much money he was going to make? Mr. RUBIN. I believe he did mention a salary that he wanted.

Mr. KENNEDY. How much did he mention?

Mr. RUBIN. To the best of my recollection, $175.

Mr. KENNEDY. $175?

Mr. RUBIN. Or $150. Somewhere around that figure.

Mr. KENNEDY. This conversation was completely initiated by him and not initiated by you? You did not ask him if he wanted a job, did you?

Mr. RUBIN. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. KENNEDY. You did not say anything about that?

Mr. RUBIN. No, sir. He told me that he felt he could do the job. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you then talk to the officers back at Ansonia Garment Co.?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did they say about that?

Mr. RUBIN. They said they would like to meet this fellow.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you then take him down there to be introduced? Mr. RUBIN. I don't recall whether I took him, but I do think he was there. He went to the plant to be interviewed by the production people in the factory.

Mr. KENNEDY. To whom did you speak at Ansonia Garment Co., regarding his employment?

Mr. RUBIN. Mr. Orons, in charge of production.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he was in charge of production at Ansonia? Mr. RUBIN. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you told him at that time that this Navy inspector wanted to go to work at your company; is that right?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you talk to anybody else there?

Mr. RUBIN. Well, I may have spoken to Mr. Friedman, who had money in back of that company.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Friedman?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is Mr. Jack Friedman?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. You might have had a discussion with him about this business?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes. I don't know whether I had a discussion with him prior to Mr. Goldman's going to the plant or afterward.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you go with Mr. Goldman to Ansonia?

Mr. RUBIN. I can't recall that, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You cannot recall whether you went or not?

Mr. RUBIN. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You do not recall that he ever saw Mr. Goldman at Ansonia or not?

Mr. RUBIN. I can't recall for sure. I probably did go, but I can't be certain that I did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was he employed or what happened?

Mr. RUBIN. No, he was not, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. For what reason?

Mr. RUBIN. Well, the people at the plant decided to hire engineers. They felt that the problem was such that they were hiring industrial engineers and let them come in and make a survey of what the necessity was in that factory, to see whether that business could continue

or not.

Mr. KENNEDY. So what happened after that? Did you see Mr. Goldman at your office any more after that?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes. Yes, sir; he would come to the office occasionally to find out what happened.

Mr. KENNEDY. About the job?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. What would you say to him?

Mr. RUBIN. I would tell him, I told him, that these engineers are surveying the plant to make a study of methods and various things that the engineers do, with the eye on increasing production, and that we would see that it was not opportune at this time.

Mr. KENNEDY. When did you make your first payment to Mr. Goldman?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. RUBIN. You didn't ask me any questions about any payment, sir, and I don't understand the question of when did I first make the payment to Mr. Goldman.

Mr. KENNEDY. I am sorry. Did you make a payment to Mr. Goldman?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. RUBIN. Mr. Senator, insofar as a payment, as Mr. Kennedy put it, I did not make any such payment. As far as lending or giving money to Mr. Goldman, on his request, I did, sir.

Senator BENDER. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Kennedy is such a fine gentleman, and so are you, I think you ought to ask the gentleman when he started bribing Goldman.

The CHAIRMAN. If the Senator will be patient with us, there will be many questions asked. I was trying to let counsel lay the foundation here for the present. Then we will all have a chance to find out a little more.

Mr. KENNEDY. He came in

Mr. REILLY. Would you excuse me a moment, Mr. Kennedy? (The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. KENNEDY. He came in the first time on the question of a job, is that right?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Would you tell the committee what happened after that that you saw him again, and these questions you mentioned something about a loan? Did you give him some money or something? Mr. RUBIN. Mr. Goldman asked me if I could help him out financially. He was short of money.

The CHAIRMAN. Speak a little louder. We want to get it straight. Mr. RUBIN. I said Mr. Goldman asked if I could lend him some money, and I did, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Was this on the occasion of his first visit?
Mr. RUBIN. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. On what visit was it, the second, third, or fourth? Mr. RUBIN. That is a very difficult question to answer, sir, because the time is out of my mind.

Senator MUNDT. Was it after he had been up to talk to the company officials?

Mr. RUBIN. I believe before that, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Before he went?

Mr. RUBIN. I believe so, sir; but I can't be positive.

Senator MUNDT. You had seen him several times, then, before he went up to talk to the company officials?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, I did, sir.

Senator MUNDT. And do you think it was on one of those occasions, prior to the visit to the company officials?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. How much did you loan him at that time?

Mr. RUBIN. $50, to the best of my knowledge.

Senator MUNDT. Cash or check?

Mr. RUBIN. Cash.

Senator MUNDT. How long did he want it?

Mr. RUBIN. Well, there was no time set on it, sir.

Senator MUNDT. For what purpose did he want it?

Mr. RUBIN. He was very short of money. He was sending his son

through college.

The CHAIRMAN. Speak a little louder.

Mr. RUBIN. I am sorry. He was sending his son through college and was short of money.

Senator MUNDT. How much was he earning?

Mr. RUBIN. I don't know.

Senator MUNDT. Did he give you some idea of how much he was earning?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, he did. He said he was earning in the neighborhood of around a hundred dollars a week, but I don't know if that is a fact or not. I don't know what grade he had.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, counsel, proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. The first time he came after you discussed the job, he asked to borrow some money at that time?

Mr. RUBIN. Yes, sir. No, not

Mr. KENNEDY. Not at that time?

Mr. RUBIN. Not the first time.

Mr. KENNEDY. When was the first time?

Mr. RUBIN. The first time he asked to borrow money?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

Mr. RUBIN. I can't be sure of the date. Probably the third or fourth time.

Mr. KENNEDY. What were you discussing the second or third times? Mr. RUBIN. Production problems.

Mr. KENNEDY. He came up to your office to discuss production problems?

Mr. RUBIN. That is correct.