Mr. LEV. I don't know the steps he was taking we didn't like. The way the paper explained

Senator MUNDT. This has nothing to do with the paper. You told me he got out of your business a long time ago.

Mr. LEV. He did, yes. He is not my partner any more.

Senator MUNDT. What has the paper to do with it?

Mr. LEV. The paper explains it.

Senator MUNDT. What was it that motivated you to give it up? That was before the paper.

Mr. LEV. Well, he wanted to assign the stock to Ades, and I did not object.

Senator MUNDT. All right. You liked that. What did he do you didn't like?

Mr. LEV. I can't say anything what he done right, what he done wrong. I cannot say anything about it.

Senator MUNDT. You are the one that brought it up. You said, "He did things I didn't like."

Mr. LEV. Well, there is only one thing I can speak, is for myself. One thing I can do is speak for myself. My record will show the background of Harry Lev. The record will show by himself.

Senator MUNDT. That has nothing to do with my question. My question is a very simple question. You said, "Mr. Rubin did some things I didn't like." I said, "Mr. Lev, what did he do, what did Mr. Rubin do that you didn't like?"

Mr. LEV. Well, for instance, he was with an officer over there, or with-what do you call it, somebody down there-and paid his bill. That is not the right thing.

Senator MUNDT. You knew about that?

Mr. LEV. I did not know. Now I find out from here.

Senator MUNDT. That wouldn't do. You got rid of him when you knew something about him. What do you know about him?

Mr. LEV. Senator, I do not know anything about him except from the papers here. I did not know he was connected with several companies. I always thought he was working for Spencer Manufacturing only. That is all I can say about him. That isn't right. That is the reason. That is a good reason, ain't it?

Senator MUNDT. No, it doesn't make any sense to me. You said you didn't know that at the time.

Mr. LEV. I did not know.

Senator MUNDT. You cannot get rid of a man for something you don't know about him. It has to be something you do know about him. You volunteered the information.

Mr. LEV. What is the information?

Senator MUNDT. You said, "I got rid of him because I didn't like him." No, it was because he did things you didn't like. I want to find out what he did.

Mr. LEV. I don't know that he was doing anything as far as I am concerned, except what I have learned from newspapers.

Senator MUNDT. That is not a responsive answer at all.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you disapprove of Mr. Ades or Mr. Rubin or anybody else paying for the bills of these Government employees? Mr. LEV. Definitely.

Mr. KENNEDY. You disapproved of it?

Mr. LEV. Definitely. I didn't never know of it.

Mr. KENNEDY. And Mr. Licari, you disapprove of his paying for Colonel Zott's bill?

Mr. LEV. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. And Mr. Ades, you disapprove of the fact that he paid for the bills of some of these inspectors?

Mr. LEV. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is definitely against your orders or anything that you want?

Mr. Lev. It is against my own way. I have never paid anybody. Mr. KENNEDY. Is that one of the reasons that you broke up with Marvin Rubin?

Mr. LEV. Marvin Rubin? What?

Mr. KENNEDY. That he was paying some of these bills, or paying off some of these people?

Mr. LEV. The reason why he wanted to assign his stock, I said

Mr. KENNEDY. That is not an answer.

Mr. LEV. What is it?

Mr. KENNEDY. Give me an answer.

Read the question.

(The record was read by the reporter.)

Come on, Mr. Lev.

Mr. Lev. I did not say pay off the people. He paid the bills.
Mr. KENNEDY. Is that why you broke up with him?

Mr. LEV. He paid the bills, not paid the people.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you break up with him because he was paying the bills of Government employees?

Mr. Lev. I will not go to work and say anything about a man, anything else which I don't know of. The only thing I am going to explain to you about is in here.

Mr. KENNEDY. You can answer that. You did or you didn't.
Mr. LEV. I don't understand the question right.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Lev, it is a pretty simple question. Did you break up with Marvin Rubin and get him out of your business because he was paying the bills of Government employees? You can say whether that is the reason or not.

Mr. LEV. And there is another thing here.

Mr. PIERCE. Say "Yes" or "No."

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair wants to be patient with you and considerate, but I do want you to answer these questions. It doesn't take a long dissertation. Is that the reason you got rid of him or not? That is all there is to it.

Mr. LEV. We didn't get rid of him yet. He is still with Spencer, connected with Spencer Manufacturing Co. He does the buying for them. That is why

The CHAIRMAN. He is still with your company?

Mr. LEV. Pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. He is still with your company?

Mr. LEV. He is still paid by the company, for buying component parts, cartons, threads, and so forth and so on.

stock.

But he don't own any

The CHAIRMAN. He doesn't own any stock, I understand, but he is still with the company as its representative?

Mr. LEV. Yes. So, therefore, I cannot go ahead and say anything against the man.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you had gotten rid of him.

Mr. LEV. No, he has not got the stock. He is not a partner any more as far as the stockholders.

The CHAIRMAN. He is no longer a stockholder, but when he ceased to be a stockholder, he continued in the employ of the Spencer Co., as a purchaser for the company; it that true?

Mr. LEV. Pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. Is that true?

Mr. LEV. That is correct.

That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all I asked you.

All right. Proceed.

Senator SYMINGTON. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Symington.

Senator SYMINGTON. Mr. Lev, Senator Mundt asked you why you got rid of Mr. Rubin, and what he had done. I think you said he did something, and that you wanted to get rid of him and that you got rid of him. What was it that he did that you did not like?

Mr. LEV. That is the reason why I want to sell out my end, that I am selling out my end.

Senator SYMINGTON. What is the reason why?

Mr. LEV. That is the reason, because I don't like to be between a different atmosphere, because I am not cut out of the same material. Senator SYMINGTON. What made you decide that you were not cut out of the same material as Mr. Rubin? What did he do that made you decide that?

Mr. LEV. Well, what I have read in the papers, is that sufficient? Isn't that enough? That is why I wanted to sell my end, Senator.

Senator SYMINGTON. But until what you read in the paper, you were satisfied with him, and it was after what this committee disclosed that made you dissatisfied with him, it that correct?

Mr. LEV. That is correct.

Senator SYMINGTON. You knew nothing against him except what you read in the papers with respect to these hearings, is that correct? Mr. LEV. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Are you really shocked, Mr. Lev, about what is coming out about your partners, about Mr. Ades and Colonel Painter and Mr. Rubin-all these things that are coming out in this hearing? Are you shocked about it?

Mr. LEV. The only thing is I am shocked about-that is correct. But I cannot say about Colonel Painter. Colonel Painter is still an honest man, as far as I am concerned. He is still honest, and he was always honest.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was Mr. Rubin to contribute to this Spencer Manufacturing Co.? Can you just give me a very brief answer and then we will go right on?

Mr. LEV. Purchasing your component parts.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was he to secure the contract? Was that what his position was?

Mr. LEV. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He was not to secure the contract?

Mr. LEV. No, sir. We have to be the lowest responsible bidder.

Mr. KENNEDY. He didn't tell you that he knew Capt. Raymond Wool?

Mr. LEV. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He didn't tell you he was friends with Capt. Raymond Wool?

Mr. LEV. No, sir. He never did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he say he was a friend of Mrs. Wool?

Mr. LEV. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He never mentioned that?

Mr. LEV. Never mentioned to me.

Mr. KENNEDY. His position was to secure component parts?

Mr. LEV. Component parts and expedite.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was he going to expedite?

Mr. LEV. Component parts.

Mr. KENNEDY. Like what?

Mr. LEV. Like threads, boxes, any parts-machinery parts and so forth and so on.

Mr. KENNEDY. What experience had he had in that line prior to this?

Mr. LEV. What exprience? I didn't had no time to check in.
Mr. KENNEDY. You just took him in?

Mr. LEV. I just took him in. I just jumped into it, that is all.
Mr. KENNEDY. You just jumped into it?

Mr. LEV. I didn't have no time to check up on him.

Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't find out whether he had had any experience in this field at all? It wasn't because of the fact that he had good friends down at ASTAPA that you took him in?

Mr. Lev. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. That wasn't?

Mr. LEV. Absolutely not.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was his partnership with you contingent upon the fact of whether you would get this contract or not?

Mr. LEV. Pardon?

Mr. KENNEDY. Was his business relationship with you, his partnership, was it contingent on whether you would receive this white sailor hat contract?

Mr. LEV. That is right. If we are a low bid. First, we got to be low in order

Mr. KENNEDY. No; if you received the contract, would he work with you?

Mr. LEV. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. If you did not receive the contract, would he?
Mr. LEV. No.

Mr. KENNEDY. He would not?

Mr. LEV. No.

Mr. KENNEDY. It was contingent upon your receiving the contract? Mr. LEV. He was trying to sell himself over there about the plastic, too. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's clear this.

Mr. LEV. Yes, sir. O. K.

The CHAIRMAN. When you entered into the agreement with Rubin, this company being organized and his getting a percentage of the stock was contingent upon your being able to secure the contract for these hats?

Mr. Lev. No, sir.

Mr. PIERCE. That is right.

Mr. LEV. I didn't understand the question. If we will be successful bidder, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, Rubin was to become a partner in the Spencer Hat Co. if this contract was secured. Otherwise, the company would not have been organized; is that true?

Mr. LEV. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. So the whole venture, where you and Ades and Rubin were connected in the Spencer Co., depended upon and was contingent upon your being able to secure a Government contract to manufacture the hats?

Mr. LEV. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. If that was true, why did you give an order for the Singer sewing machines before you had the contract?

Mr. LEV. Before we had the contract?

Senator MUNDT. Yes.

Mr. LEV. It was only an option.

Senator MUNDT. I thought you had an order.

Mr. LEV. No; that is an option.

You got this fellow in here.

Senator MUNDT. With Singer Sewing Machine?
Mr. LEV. Definitely it was an option.
You can ask him. It is an option.

Mr. KENNEDY. Marvin Rubin didn't come to Chicago until May 3. You did not agree to go into this white-hat deal until after that, so you could not possibly have ordered the machinery and gotten an option prior to that time.

Mr. LEV. Before we put in the bid, we got the option on it. How can we go to work-how would we know if we are going to get the business? It would be very unfoolish business way of doing it. Catching the fish on a-what is it? You catch the fish on dry land. It would be ridiculous.

Senator MUNDT. I will say the witness is a competent witness on that subject.

Senator BENDER. He is the sturgeon general.

Mr. KENNEDY. Can you identify this?

(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. PIERCE. Is this the preliminary agreement?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes, on May 5.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LEV. Yes, that is correct. That was signed the morning before we put the bid in. Colonel Painter was there.

The CHAIRMAN. This has been identified. It has not been made an exhibit. It may be made exhibit No. 82.

(Exhibit No. 82 may be found in the files of the subcommittee.) Mr. KENNEDY. That specifically states in there, as you have testified. that the employment of Mr. Rubin was contingent upon your receiving this contract, which you agreed.

Mr. LEV. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. There is a clause in the bid invitation which states:

The bidder represents (a) that he has not employed or retained any company or person other than a full-time bona fide employee working solely for the bidder, to solicit or secure this contract, and (b) that he has not paid or agreed to pay to any company or person, other than a full-time bona fide employee working solely for the bidder or contractor, any fee, commission, percentage, or brokerage fee, contingent upon resulting from the award of this contract, and agrees to furnish information relating thereto as requested by the contracting officer.