HEARINGS

BEFORE

SUBCOMMITTEE No. 2

(CAMPS)

OF THE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES
IN THE WAR DEPARTMENT

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUBCOMMITTEE No. 2 (CAMPS)

OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON

EXPENDITURES IN THE WAR DEPARTMENT,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

Columbus, Ohio, Saturday, November 1, 1919.

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjournment on yesterday in the senate chamber of the State capitol, at Columbus, Ohio, Hon. John C. McKenzie (chairman) presiding. Also present: Hon. Roscoe C. McCulloch and Hon. Frank E. Doremus.

TESTIMONY OF W. F. GUNTHER, CHILLICOTHE, OHIO.

(The witness was duly sworn by Mr. McKenzie.)

Mr. MCKENZIE. What is your name-Gunther?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Where do you live?

Mr. GUNTHER. Chillicothe.

Mr. MCKENZIE. How long have you lived there?

Mr. GUNTHER. All my life.

Mr. MCKENZIE. What is your business?

Mr. GUNTHER. I am a contractor-carpenter contractor.

Mr. MCKENZIE. How long have you been in the contracting business?

Mr. GUNTHER. I have been in the contracting business about 20 years.

Mr. MCKENZIE. To what extent do you engage in that businesswhat is the size of your organization?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, it is individual. I contract in a small way; the largest contract I have had is $40,000, and from that down; nothing larger than that.

Mr. MCKENZIE. You are carrying it on on your own responsibility?

Mr. GUNTHER. On my own responsibility. I have made some money and I have lost some money.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Have you stated whether or not you worked at Camp Sherman?

Mr. GUNTHER. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Did you work at Camp Sherman?

Mr. GUNTHER. I worked at Camp Sherman; yes, sir.

Mr. McCULLOCH. How long were you there?

Mr. GUNTHER. I started there on the 27th day of June, 1917, and I was there continuously until the 18th or 20th of March of this year. Mr. McCULLOCH. During that time what position or positions did you hold?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, when I started there I went there as a carpenter foreman.

Mr. McCULLOCH. For whom?

Mr. GUNTHER. Bentley.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Then, what else did you do?

Mr. GUNTHER. I was there with Bentley until the 1st of December, until they left

Mr. McCULLOCH (interposing). All the time as a carpenter foreman?

Mr. GUNTHER. All the time as a carpenter foreman.

Mr. McCULLOCH. And then what?

Mr. GUNTHER. And then the constructing quartermaster; I think he took it over and I remained with him all that winter until about the middle of February-somewhere in that neighborhood, when I went with McGrath; but I was continuously on the job.

Mr. McCULLOCH. When you went with McGrath, in what capacity did you work?

Mr. GUNTHER. Carpenter foreman.

Mr. McCULLOCH. How long did you work with McGrath?

Mr. GUNTHER. Until they went out in February.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Until they left the job?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes; until they left. Along about October or November, some time of last year, I was made section foreman at the base hospital, or block foreman, as some call it; section foreman I always called it.

Mr. McCULLOCH. But you were over carpenters?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes; over carpenters.

Mr. McCULLOCHI. So you were, in fact, a carpenter?

Mr. GUNTHER. At that time, no; more in the nature of a superintendent.

Mr. McCULLOCH. When you first went on the job as a carpenter foreman for the Bentley Co., how many men did you have under you?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, I think that I took-when I first went there I think I took 40 men with me the first day that I went.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Tell us about the qualifications of the men; were they all experienced carpenters?

Mr. GUNTHER. No; not all of them.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Can you give the committee some idea now of the qualifications of the men that were assigned to you?

Mr. GUNTHER. Well, they went along in this way-when I went there I happened to be the first one on the job, and I had the selections of the local men whom I knew-a great many of them-many of them worked for me years before and some I have working for me to-day.

Mr. MCCULLOCH. You got the gang together?

Mr. GUNTHER. I got the gang together, and Mr. Hollingsworth told me to get the gang together, 30 or 40 men, and go to the Phillips house and he would be out the next morning and tell me what to do. I could not get the whole of the 40 men, and I selected some from the labor bureau, but it was but a day or two until I found out whether they were mechanics or not.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Were those furnished to you, mechanics?

Mr. GUNTHER. Not all of them.

Mr. McCULLOCH. As you went along, did you have the same gang or different gangs of men?

Mr. GUNTHER. Oh, no; as I went along some of the men would ask for the foreman, and I recommended them, and they were made foremen and went on different parts of the field. In that way I had to get my men from another place, and the only way I could get them was to make a request for carpenters and they would send them to me.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Dealing with that subject generally, and then passing it by, what do you say as to the percentage of carpenters that came under your observation, not only in your own gang but generally, who were really qualified as carpenters?

Mr. GUNTHER. I don't think there was over 30 or 35 per cent of them were mechanics-carpenters.

Mr. McCULLOCH. What do you say as to the number of men that were assigned to the various parts of the work; were there too many men or were there too few?

Mr. GUNTHER. From my observation, there were considerably too many men on the job.

Mr. McCULLOCH. You are a practical man and I wish you would give the committee just some idea as to what your judgment is as to the percentage of men that were on the job that would not be necessary; that is, give us some idea of how many too many there were? Mr. GUNTHER. Oh, there were at least 50 to 60 per cent too many. Mr. McCULLOCH. And when you say too many, do you mean that because of the large number of men on the work, the work could not be done in the most expeditious and best way?

Mr. GUNTHER. Emphatically so, from a mechanical standpoint, and

Mr. McCULLOCH (interposing). That is what I want to get at; from a mechanical standpoint, and-what?

Mr. GUNTHER. From a mechanical standpoint, there were entirely

too many.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Mr. Gunther, can you give us some idea of what you mean?

Mr. GUNTHER. If I have a building 50 feet square I don't want a man for every square foot of it, because there are too many men and they are in each other's way.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Which would result in delay?

Mr. GUNTHER. Yes, sir; bound to.

Mr. McCULLOCH. And in additional cost?

Mr. GUNTHER. Additional cost. If I was doing it in my own way, as a contractor, I would not have had half of them.

Mr. McCULLOCH. If you were doing it as a contractor yourself, you would not have had half of them?

Mr. GUNTHER. Not half of them.

Mr. McCULLOCH. Would you have gotten it completed as quick or quicker with a half?

Mr. GUNTHER. I would have gotten it completed quicker.

Mr. McCULLOCH. It has been urged here-I do not know about its being urged here--but it has been urged that because of the necessity for speed, which everybody concedes, that it was necessary to