public business would permit it to be intro- [ right and duty to give their opinions upon

me that the right hon. Gentleman is in a | Reform Bill. The right hon. Gentleman dilemma. When the right hon. Gentleman says that he has not been apprised that wants to show that ample time must be there will be no lengthened discussion on allowed for the discussion on the introduc- the Scotch Reform Bill. As far as I am tion of the Bill, he speaks of it in a man- aware of the intentions of hon. Gentlemen ner that must lead the House to suppose on this side of the House, I may say that that it involved propositions of magnitude it is highly improbable that any lengthened and difficulty; but, on the other hand, debate will take place. Of course, if it when he wants to show that the House were found that there would be no time on could discuss the Irish policy of the Go- Monday night for the introduction of the vernment without any knowledge of the Irish Reform Bill, after the second reading provisions of the Bill, then he argues as if of the Scotch Bill was disposed of, the nothing but the details of the scheme Government could not be blamed. I would would require consideration. Now, I put not attempt to interfere with the discretion it to the right hon. Gentleman and the of the right hon. Gentleman, but I put this House that the question of Parliamentary point for his consideration, that the Irish Reform is a vital portion of the policy Reform Bill is a measure forming an eswhich is to be pursued towards Ireland at sential element of any policy to be pursued the present moment. We have heard a by any Government towards Ireland at formidable demand for the establishment this time; and that being so, we are enof Irish nationality-that nationality to be titled in reason and propriety-I will not incorporated and expressed through a se- say that decency also requires it-to be parate Legislature. On the other hand, informed of the leading outlines of that we have always been accustomed to en- measure before we proceed to the discussion courage our Irish fellow-subjects to present which will arise on the Motion of the hon. their grievances to this House, and to trust Member for Cork. to the efficacy of their representative institutions to remedy them. Now, if that be so, the question will naturally arise at the present crisis, what are to be the future character and efficiency of those representative institutions-for they are admitted to be very imperfect at present? We are going, if we can, to develope them further, to put them in such a state that we can boldly call upon our Irish fellow-subjects to trust them. Therefore, at the very root of Irish policy lies the question of Reform. It appears to me, then, that the right hon. Gentlemen will exercise a very unfortunate discretion indeed if he does not accede to the request of my right hon. Friend, and bring in the Irish Reform Bill on Monday night. I am well aware that we are in his hands. The House has no choice but to submit. It is impossible to force the noble Lord (the Earl of Mayo) to bring forward the measure if he does not choose. One man may lead a horse to the water, but twenty men cannot make him drink. But if the noble Lord will not bring in the Bill on Monday, he ought, at all events, to inform the House in his statement on Tuesday, what are to be the general outlines of the measure. In acceding to the desire of the Government I make the reciprocal claim, which is founded on justice and good sense, that they shall acquaint us with the general character of the provisions they propose to embody in the Irish

MR. COGAN said, he must express his regret, as an Irish representative, at the course which the Government had announced their determination to pursue. He, with many others, had shared the hope when a new Administration, with the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire at its head, was formed, that some bold and comprehensive policy would be sketched out for Ireland; but the course taken with respect to Parliamentary Reform for Ire land was not calculated to inspire confidence, and might give rise to the impression that the Government deferred the introduction of the Bill because they did not wish to show their hand. He could not see on what other possible grounds the Government objected to lay the Irish Reform Bill on the table, and have it circulated through the country, or why Parliamentary Reform should be completed for England, and the Scotch Reform Bill should be read the second time before the Irish measure was even introduced. Formerly the custom was that two such measures should be introduced contemporaneously, and he regretted the slight that had been put on Ireland by the precedency accorded to the Scotch measure. He could confirm the statement that it was not intended by the Scotch Members to have a lengthened discussion on the second reading of the Scotch Reform Bill. The chief discussion would take place on its next stage on

main question, and he thought the debate would only be embarrassed by the introduction of the details of the Reform Bill. On the whole, the Government were of opinion that it was better to adhere to the original arrangement. He could assure

the Motion to be made by the hon. Mem- to know that the Irish Bill would bear a ber for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) respecting considerable likeness to the Bill passed for the re-distribution of seats in Scotland. England, and to that introduced for ScotTherefore the likelihood of a lengthened land. There would be ample topics for discussion on the Scotch Bill could not the consideration of the House in the prevent the Government from laying the Irish Reform Bill on the table. Perhaps, as a compromise, the Government would undertake conditionally-if the debate on the Scotch measure did not last longer than nine or ten o'clock-to bring in the Irish Reform Bill on the same night. If the House that the Government would inthe Government really intended to com- troduce the Irish Reform Bill at the earliest plete the measure of Reform this Session-moment-either on Monday week, or on which the House ought to insist on-they the first available night after the debate must not hesitate to pursue this course on the general state of Ireland. The Irish Members had a painful recol- MR. O'BEIRNE said, he must regret lection of the many promises made and the course that had been adopted by the not fulfilled last Session with regard to Government. Last Session, the Irish ReParliamentary Reform for Ireland, and form Bill had been kept dangling before he hoped that the same course would not the eyes of Members, to be ultimately be pursued in the present Session. They withdrawn. The same tactics appeared to could not ignore this fact, that the poli- be now repeated. It was felt-rightly or tical organs of the Government in Ireland wrongly that a pressure was put upon were calling on the Government not to the Government. He thought it was someintroduce an Irish Reform Bill on ac- what too hard that the introduction of the count of the exceptional state of circum- Irish Reform Bill should be postponed to stances in that country, and that it was allow not only the Scotch Reform Bill to the wish of a number of the leading Con- be debated on Monday next, but several servatives in Ireland that no Irish Reform other measures besides. It was for the Bill should be introduced. Under these right hon. Gentleman at the head of the circumstances, the conduct of the Govern Government to take on himself the responment should be above suspicion; and they sibility which such a course carried with it; ought not to postpone the introduction of but he (Mr. O'Beirne) was convinced that the Irish Reform Bill from week to week the feeling now prevailing in Irelandso as to render it very possible that the whieh was by no means of a desirable measure would not be carried during the character-would not be allayed by the present Session. course announced that evening by the Government.

THE EARL OF MAYO said, he wished to point out that when the proposal was first made that the Scotch Reform Bill should be taken on a certain night, and

Motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," by leave, withdrawn.

Commitee deferred till Monday next.

COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS (No.1.) BILL.

LEAVE. FIRST READING.

that the Motion of the hon. Member for Cork should then come on, and that on the Monday afterwards the Irish Reform Bill should be introduced, no objection was taken to the proposal. The Government thought that arrangement the best on the SIR WILLIAM GALLWEY said, he whole, and had not departed from it in any begged to move for leave to bring in a Bill way. The general debate on Ireland being to establish County Financial Boards for concluded on Thursday or Friday, the Go- the assessing of County Rates, and for the vernment would then be prepared on the administration of County expenditure in following Monday or on the earliest day to England and Wales. He proposed to introduce the Irish Reform Bill. The right postpone debate on this question till his hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lan- Bill was printed, and in the hands of hon. cashire (Mr. Gladstone) laid great stress Members. The principal object of his Bill on the necessity in discussing the policy of was to provide that there should be local the Government towards Ireland of being representation wherever there was local informed of the leading outlines of the Irish taxation. He thought the absence of such Reform Bill; but surely it was sufficient a principle was a great anomaly, and con

RAILWAYS (IRELAND).

MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.

least they were secret in the first instance, though he believed in most cases they had come to light-which it was most desirable THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in should be brought to the knowledge of moving for a Copy of the Instructions Her Majesty's Ministers and of Parliament issued to the Commissioners appointed to before any decision was arrived at as to inquire into the State and Value of the the course which should be pursued, in Railways of Ireland, said that the matter treating with this question of railway acin question was to his mind of such vital commodation. In Ireland the people, being importance that he thought their Lordships far more feeble than here, suffered infiought to be made acquainted with the In- nitely greater grievances from the monopoly structions upon which the Commissioners of railway companies than were suffered in acted, and the point to which their in- England. He did not complain of the fact quiries were directed. He believed in his that the large railway companies possessed conscience that since the Union a more a monopoly. When Parliament created important measure, with the exception of those bodies they created monopolies from Catholic Emancipation, was never taken the very nature of the case. But what he in hand by the Government of the coun- said was this, that the result of establishtry. That Parliament should deal with the ing those great companies without any conIrish railways was, in his opinion, absolutely trol was, that grievous loss was occasioned necessary for the progress of Ireland; and to the country, in proportion to the accomnot only was it absolutely necessary for modation that railways afforded. Nothing material progress, but he felt convinced that could be more absurd than to talk as people the earnest consideration and the determi- did when they spoke of the English system nation of the subject would have the great- of railway management, as compared with est effect upon the whole feeling and dis- the system abroad, as one of free competiposition of the Irish towards the Govern- tion. There could be no such thing as free ment and towards people of this country. It competition in such a case. He differed should be known to their Lordships that in from the conclusion which had been come Ireland a conviction was entertained that to by the Commissioners of 1866, that the in matters touching the prosperity, and competition between railways necessarily especially the commercial progress of the lowered the tolls and rates which would country, there was not a sincere desire to otherwise be imposed by canals for the promote the welfare of Ireland, but, on carriage of goods. In Ireland, exactly the contrary, a jealousy and a disposition the reverse had taken place, and it was to do nothing, except what was forced upon a fact that goods were now carried across the Government of the day, and upon the that country to some places at a higher Imperial Parliament. He was not going rate than was charged before railways were to argue the question, whether this feeling established, aud he was informed that in was rightly or wrongly entertained, he part of England the case was the same. merely thought it proper to state it as a For what happened? The railway monofact which could not be too deeply im- polists combined for their own advantage, pressed on the minds of the Members of and the public had no check or control both Houses of Parliament. Under these over them. For instance, in Ireland, the circumstances, therefore, he thought him Great Southern and Western and the Great self justified in asking Her Majesty's Midland, after a short competition, entered Ministers to allow the House to know into a combination between themselves, what were the Instructions under which the and an agreement was come to by which Commissioners were acting. He had no the canals were to be bought up; but the doubt that they were pursuing their in- voice of the nation cried out against that quiries into the financial position of the project, and it was given up. However, railways- their liabilities, debts, and the the railway companies came to an arrangegeneral condition of the property with ad- ment with the canals, and compelled them mirable discretion and judgment, and that to charge a certain rate for the conveyance they would by-and-by form a very ac- of goods upon their waters. Not only had curate estimate of the value of that pro- they thus obtained possession of the canals, perty. He apprehended that they would but, as was shown at a recent railway not fail to inquire also into all such general meeting, they had even taken possession agreements as working arrangements, but of the navigation of the Shannon. In there were more secret engagements-at his opinion, therefore, it was right that