POOR RELIEF BILL [H.L.] A Bill to make further Amendments in the Laws for the Relief of the Poor-Was presented by The Earl of DEVON; read 1a. (No. 39.) TENURE (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.] mittee; the Committee to meet on Monday next, The Lords following were named of the Comat Half past Three o' Clock, and to appoint their own Chairman: D. Devonshire E. Lucan E. Stradbroke E. Kimberley V. Lifford L. Chaworth L. Churston House adjourned at Eight o'clock, to HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, March 13, 1868. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS - Ordered-Inclo- sure. Board. But, though the Board had not received more than one personal application, they were, nevertheless, fully alive to the serious character of the change which had taken place, and would not fail to watch with anxiety and care the consequences which might result from it. He believed that sufficient time had not yet elapsed to enable them to judge of the effect of the change upon large populations. There were several large towns in England in which no rate whatever had been struck since the passing of the Act last year, and in regard to them it was obviously impossible at present to ascertain the operation of the statute. With regard to the statement of the noble Earl opposite, that there would be a great loss of rates, he might mention that there was no detailed or general Report on which a judgment could be formed; but he was bound to say that, from private inquiries which had been instituted, there was reason to believe that in those cases, at least, in which inquiry had been made there would be as large an amount of rates collected as was raised under the old system. With regard to the difficulty of collecting rates in the East of London, he could only repeat what his noble Friend had stated, and refer to the exceptional circumstances in which several large parishes in that part of the metropolis have been placed during the last six or eight months. It was, however, undoubtedly true that a large number of summonses had been issued; but this was an evil which might be modified by the introduction of some new provisions respecting the process by which persons unable to pay their rates might obtain the right of being excused from payment. At present, every person who wished to be excused had to make a personal application to a magistrate; and it was only with the consent of MR. ADDERLEY said, in reply, that the overseer that individuals were excused; his attention had been called to that subbut he thought it would be better to abo-ject. The practice had been in existence lish the necessity for a personal application, and to empower the overseers to prepare and submit to the consideration of the magistrate a collective list of the persons who were unable to pay their rates. Such a change would, in his opinion, greatly diminish the hardship and difficulty which at present obtained, and was well deserving of, the consideration of the House. Without expressing any opinion on the Reform Act or its political bearing, he might state that the party with whom he was associated would not fail carefully to watch its operation and effect on the ratepayers of the country. [62]. QUEENSLAND-LABOURERS FROM QUESTION. MR. TAYLOR said, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether his attention has been called to the practice of importing labourers from the South Sea Islands into Queensland; and if he will lay upon the table any Papers or Correspondence on the subject? since the year 1863, and the Reports on the results of importing labourers into Queensland were very favourable, and all that was wanting was such legislation as would insure the proper treatment of the immigrants. Complaints, however, having reached the Colonial Department, inquiries had been made of the Governor, and draft regulations had been sent out both as to the recruiting, shipping, and treatment on landing of such immigrants. The Legislature of Queensland had, however, passed an Act for that purpose which crossed these suggestions on the road, and which SCOTLAND-EDUCATION.-QUESTION. was completely satisfactory. The hon. | partial operation of the Processions Act. Member might confer with him as to the The Question he wished to put to the Chief parts of the Correspondence on the subject Secretary for Ireland was, Whether the which it would be desirable to produce. Government, having vindicated the Law by obtaining the conviction and punishment of Mr. Johnston, of Ballykilbeg, and other Orangemen, for offences against the Processions Act, (which had not proved itself impartial in its working), will in deference habitants of the North of Ireland, recomto the feelings and wishes of the loyal inmend the clemency of the Crown, and the MR. CRAUFURD said, he rose to ask the Lord Advocate, Whether he intends to propose any Educational Measure for Scotland in the present Session; and, if so, whether it is to be framed in accordance with the Bill suggested by the Scottish Education Commission? He would also beg to ask, whether the Bill will contain provisions for compulsory attendance at school? remission of the remainder of their terms of imprisonment? MR. DARBY GRIFFITH, said, before the noble Lord answered that Question, THE LORD ADVOCATE said, in reply, perhaps he would allow him to put to him that it was the intention of the Government the Question of which he had given notice to introduce a Bill relating to Education in with a view to the vindication of the equal on the same subject-namely, Whether, Scotland in the course of the present Sesand impartial administration of the Law in sion. He might, at the same time, state Ireland, it is the intention of the Governthat the delay on his part had, to a great extent, been caused by a desire to afford ment to yield to any Parliamentary solicifacilities for representations to be made by has expressed regret for his late proceedtations in favour of Mr. Johnston, until he persons representing various religious and other important bodies in Scotland, in re-exercise of the mercy of the Crown in his ings, and has himself petitioned for the ference to the recommendations of the own favour? Commissioners. Those representations had THE EARL OF MAYO said, he hoped now been received, and the Bill would, he hoped, soon be brought in. An additional Report had been made by the Educational Commissioners, and would shortly be issued, dealing with the subject of normal and other training schools, which had a material bearing on the question of elementary education. He trusted the hon. and learned Member would excuse him for not answering the concluding part of his Question, because it was a subject that would require to be approved by the Government before it was introduced into the Bill. IRELAND-PARTY PROCESSIONS. QUESTION. COLONEL STUART KNOX said, that before putting the Question that he had placed on the Paper, he wished to express his astonishment, as he had already done to Mr. Speaker, that in that day's Votes it appeared in a mutilated condition; he supposed on account of what he might call the unwarrantable attack made upon him yesterday by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. D. Griffith). His (Colonel S. Knox's) only object in putting the Question was to relieve the minds of the loyal inhabitants of the North of Ireland, who, while always ready to obey the law, writhed under the the House would permit him to state as Their He be with regard to those two men. drawn up by counsel, and signed by me without full consideration. I feel now, however, that to appear in any way to plead guilty to the charge of intention to create animosity and provoke a breach of the peace would be wrong in principle, to imprisonment for one month, with a further imprisonment of a month in the event of their being unwilling or unable to enter into recognizances to keep the peace. On the 29th of February Mr. Johnston presented a Memorial to the Lord Lieutenant, stating that he had refused to accede to the terms offered by the AttorneyGeneral, not because he was actuated by any spirit of opposition to the law or the authority of the Government, but because he could not say conscientiously that he had acted inadvertently and without deliberation on the occasion of joining and becoming a party to the procession of the 12th of July, having attended the meeting after full consideration and with a full knowledge of what he was doing. That "Down Gaol, March 11, 1868. he accepted the verdict which had been "May it please your Excellency, I regret that given by a jury of his countrymen, and did I find myself unable to comply with Dr. Maconot complain of it; and that, in so far nochy's request and complete the recognizances, as that portion of the sentence which re- on which condition, he says, my discharge will be lated to his recognizances was concerned, granted, as my health is deemed by him likely permanently to suffer from the two months' imhe was perfectly willing to enter into them prisonment. The Memorial which was sent forat once, and to give bail in the way that ward to your Excellency in favour of the other was required. He made no request for prisoners, and signed by me, in which I stated himself, but requested that his two fellow-myself prepared to give the required bail, was prisoners, who, he said, acted in the whole matter under his advice and suggestion, should be released. That petition was forwarded to the Lord Lieutenant, and referred to the Judge, who very naturally said that as it did not come from the prisoners themselves, but from a fellow-prisoner who did not ask for any remission of his own sentence, he did not think it his duty to offer any opinion on the subject. On the next day the Lord Lieutenant returned for answer that, as Mr. Johnston's memorial did not contain any request with regard to himself, his Excellency could not act upon it; but that if Mr. Johnston or the other petitioners memorialized in the ordinary way, their petitions would be considered in the usual course. On the 9th of March the two prisoners M'Whinny and Keatinge petitioned the Lord Lieutenant, stating that they regretted having committed the offence of which they had been convicted, and promised never again to be guilty of any breach of the Law. Their memorial was referred to the Judge, who next day answered that he thought they were entitled to favourable consideration as far as remitting the remainder of the sentence went; but that if they were released they should be required to enter into the necessary recognizances. On the 9th of March the Lord Lieutenant ordered the remainder of the sentence to be remitted and I am prepared rather to risk my health (trustand those who acted with me. My action in this ing in God's providence) than so implicate myself matter is not, however, prompted by any desire to violate the Party Processions Act' as long as it remains on the Statute book, as I have no design of doing so, but by what I believe due to my principles and my party. "I have the honour to be, your Excellency's In consequence of the receipt of that letter, ARMY-THE ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE. QUESTION. COLONEL ANNESLEY said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is in contemplation to alter the age for admission to the Royal Military College; and, if so, whether due notice will be given before such alteration takes effect? SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, in reply, that it was in contemplation to make considerable reductions in the ages at which young men entered the Colleges at Sandhurst and Woolwich. Due notice would, however, be given when the changes were likely to come into operation. NAVY-THE DOCKYARD COMMISSION. In reply to Mr. CHILDERS, the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and the military occupation of Ireland, as something which could no longer be suffered. It would be a remarkable instance of good coming out of evil if Fenianism should induce the House and the country to deal with the Irish problem and, above all, with the State Church in Ireland. He saw no reason to despair with respect to the task he had referred to, but, on the contrary, he was convinced that if they boldly persevered in that course of remedial legislation which had been entered on in former times, but which latterly bad been much interrupted, they would obtain greater success than those who had preceded them. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had presented a picture, perhaps too highly coloured; but he admitted that it afforded ground for hope, though he could not agree with the noble Lord or the right hon. Member for Calne in thinking Fenian"That this House will immediately resolve it-ism so insignificant a matter. They might STATE OF IRELAND. MOTION FOR COMMITTEE. Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [10th March], self into a Committee, with the view of taking into consideration the condition and circumstances of Ireland,"—(Mr. Maguire:) And which Amendment was, To leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "before the consideration by this House of constitutional changes in the laws and institutions of Ireland, it is both just and expedient to inquire into the causes of alleged discontent, and the best mode of remedying ihe same,"-(Sir Frederick Heygate,) -instead thereof. easily devote too much of their attention to the Fenians in America, whom they could not touch, whilst they neglected Fenianism at home which they could influence at once. Although it was true that Fenianism did not command the sympathy of men of rank and education that former Irish insurrections possessed, he was not at all sure that it was less formidable on that account. Its leaders, though perhaps of a lower class, were certainly more numerous than in former times, and numbered amongst them strangers, or semi-strangers, trained Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part in the dangerous school of civil war in of the Question." Debate resumed. MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE expressed a hope that the House would be of opinion that the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Maguire) was fully justified in bringing the condition of Ireland under consideration. The House also, he thought, was only doing its duty in making the question the subject of an important debate. As for himself, he felt that a time had come which called upon Parliament to make up the arrears which had accumulated in the matter of Irish legislation, and he thought that the task would be rendered more easy by the very circumstances of the time; for great difficulties, while they imposed obligations, sometimes constituted opportunities. He believed that a large number of people in this country felt the present condition of Ireland to be intolerable. They regarded Fenianism, accompanied as it was with outrage and alarm, another country. Besides this, the rank and file of Fenianism was not composed, as that of the Rebellion of 1798, of ignorant peasantry; but consisted to a great extent of an educated and thoughtful class of revolutionists existing amongst the artizan class in Ireland. It was, in fact, a more thoughtful and civilized revolution than that of 1798; but it was not, therefore, less formidable. The true difference in the present instance as compared with former occasions of a similar kind in Ireland was thisthat while the revolutionary movement was more formidable, the forces on the side of law and order were much greater. Those forces now consisted not merely of the Protestant body, but of a very large and influential class among the Catholics in Ireland, who had grown enormously in wealth, influence, and good feeling towards this country under the more just and salutary system of legislation pursued in recent years. That observation extended to the clergy, those connected with the land, the mercan- | missions, such as the questions of railways, and national primary education; nor would he say anything with regard to the Reform Bill, because at present they did not know what it was, But they had been informed within the last two nights what were the intentions of the Government with regard to the subjects of University education, the land, and the Church in Ireland. With respect to education, he must say that he had listened last night to the speech of the Home Secretary with considerable pleasure and satisfaction. He did not refer to any particular measure indicated by the right hon. Gentleman, but to the general tone of his address, which, in a prominent politician representing any considerable portion of the House, and particularly in a Minister of the Crown, was not a matter of indifference to the people of Ireland. He had always considered himself a temperate advocate of united education, as became an old advocate of the National system in Ireland and a reformer at Oxford. As a University reformer his personal views were of a very lay character indeed; and he would throw open Oxford as wide as the nation itself. He was not one of the class often described as clerically-minded men. But he was not able to rise to that height of devotion to united education which considered it as a sort of universal religion, to be propagated vi et armis, at all times and seasons, regardless of the wishes and feelings of those who were to be subjected to it, although it appeared to be looked upon in that light by many eminent Members of that House. He was the more suspicious of this doctrine when carried to an extreme, because experience had taught him that the doctrine of united education, although prevailing honestly in the minds of a small number of philosophical and enlightened men, assumed in the minds of the many the familiar and vulgar form of "No Popery." These were the feelings with which he approached the consideration of the proposal of Her Majesty's Government with regard to University education in Ireland. He felt so strongly the claims of the Catholic population of Ireland to absolute equality at the hands of Government in the matter of University education, and the excessive privations in this respect under which they had laboured so long and were now labouring, that it was impossible for him to meet any proposal which professed to meet the claims and wants of the people of Ireland with any hasty hostility. He felt that the establishment of Protestantism in tile, professional, and almost the whole middle class. He appealed, as an illustration of this, to the admirable conduct of the Irish juries during the late political trials. They had performed their duty towards their country with true patriotism and an independance worthy of all praise. He could not help contrasting the spirit thus exhibited with the state of things in 1844, when charges were made against the Government in relation to the improper and unequal composition of juries. No such charges were made now-a-days, and this was creditable to the Government and encouraging to the friends of Ireland. Yet, in spite of all this, they found, alongside of comparative prosperity and improvement, danger and disaffection. How had they attained to this improvement? Not by coercion or suspension of the Habeas Corpus, not by the maintenance of what was called the Protestant interest, or the Protestant garrison of Ireland. No; but by what his noble Friend called the "new policy" which had been inaugurated in that country, and in which the Liberal party might take just pride-by the complete reversal of the former policy. The Act of 1829 had been followed by the Reform Act of 1832. That great Act produced a long list of admirable measures for Ireland municipal reform, tithe reform, popular extension of the franchise, Poor Laws, the Encumbered Estates Act, a large and popular system of education, besides very great and inestimable changes in what was most important the administration of Ireland. That produced Catholic judges, Catholic magistrates, the impartial composition of juries. To these, under the blessing of Providence, they owed the real improvement which had been effected in Ireland. This progress had continued for some time, but of late years it had been considerably checked; for in his opinion, with respect to Irish affairs, politicians in this country, not excluding the Liberal party, had sunk into stagnation and indifference. With such results to guide them, he believed that the Reformed Parliament would emulate, if it did not surpass, the exploits of the Parliament of 1832, and that even the present Parliament might begin the good work. And now he had to ask the House what assistance did they receive from Her Majesty's Go vernment in the pursuit of this policy? He would say nothing on those subjects which were under the consideration of Royal Com |