Roman Catholics were represented by only fifty-one Members. That was a monstrous injustice. The people of England had a Member for every 40,000, and Ireland ought to be represented in the same proportion. The whole of the other House was anti-Catholic and anti-Irish. Out of 658 Members of that House, there only fifty-one Members who represented the Catholic feeling of Ireland. He was of opinion that if the people of Ireland did not demand a system of representation similar to that of Australia, which has household suffrage and the ballot, her people would deserve all the misery entailed by the injustice of the English Parment. He gave the noble Lord credit for his good intentions; but disapproved of his Bill, and should certainly move Amendments to it in Committee. at that statement of his; but he would lation of 800,000, whilst 5,000,000 of remind them that at a moment such as this, when great changes in the representative system were about to take place, when the character of that House might largely alter, it was well worth remembering whence their greatest statesmen came; and it could not be otherwise than useful, both now and in the future, to bear in mind the distinguished names by which they had been preceded. If anything could surprise him which came from the Treasury Bench, he admitted the outline of the Bill now laid before them would have done so; but as he had little faith in the professions of the present Ministry he was not quite unprepared even for this. The right hon. Gentleman who now held the high office of First Minister of the Crown should not forget the doctrines he recently expressed in Edinburgh. If his position at present is still more exalted and responsible than when he uttered those words, it gave him (Mr. O'Beirne) a much stronger right to claim from him, in dealing with Ireland, the observance of those doctrines. However, the right hon. Gentleman had very lately deliberately repeated them in the public Press, and had declared that he was against any abrogation of existing representation, and why, therefore, should he, in dealing with Ireland, overlook that pledge? It was difficult to him (Mr. O'Beirne) to understand the course contemplated to be adopted, unless, indeed, it was read by the light of those who desired, at any and every risk, and any and every means, to increase the dominant power of the Tory party, and to relinquish boroughs and cut up counties in such a manner as they considered best suited their most unconstitutional and unjustifiable purpose. However, for his part he had only to repeat that he would resist the progress of the Bill so far as he could, unless its objectionable features were altered; and he then gave notice that he would move as an Amendment on the second reading of the Bill, that all that part of it which provided for the disfranchising of boroughs should be omitted, and upon that discussion the noble Lord would have an opportunity of more fully explaining and defending the principles of his measure, if indeed he had any principles to sustain in it. MR. REARDEN said, the people of Ireland were entitled to an equal number of Members with England in proportion to the population. There were fifty-four Members in Ireland representing a popu MR. LAWSON said, that the scheme of the noble Lord was to increase the county representation by five, and to take away those five from the boroughs. He also proposed to give three seats instead of two to Dublin. Assuming that these five borough seats should be transferred to the counties, the House would expect that the noble Lord would have given these seats to the counties with the largest population and the most inadequate representation. But that had not been done. There were thirty-two Irish counties, which each returned two Members, and Cork, with a population of 429,000, only returned two Members, while Carlow, with a population of only 49,000, also returned two Members. It was proposed that Carlow should. still return two Members; but the noble Lord left out Galway and Mayo, which were both larger than Tyrone, and gave an additional Member to Tyrone. Was there, however, any reason why he should give that seat to a county in which a disfranchised borough was locally situated? The noble Earl gave an additional Member each to Tyrone and Down; but had he applied the principle of the three-cornered constituency to those counties or to Cork? No; he gave a Member to a particular district, and isolated a number of baronies in Tyrone and Down, leaving the rest of these counties to enjoy their two Members. The object clearly was to perpetuate the territorial influence that ruled over the representation of those counties, and to prevent the application of the representation of minorities scheme which the noble Lord had applied to Dublin. There were many other parts of the scheme which, on close examination, would be found to bear the marks of design. ["Oh, oh!"] He would not go minutely into the proposals which had been made for the reduction of the franchise; but simply make the observation that when the Bill came to be read a second time, it would deserve, as he was sure it would receive, the fullest consideration. MR. BAGWELL said, that the scheme was far more important than it appeared to be on the first blush. The proposal was to take away the urban representation for the purpose of uniting it with the counties. To give additional Members to Tyrone and Tipperary would be simply to give two additional Members to the Conservative side of the House ["No, no!"]; but if the tenantry of Ireland could freely exercise the franchise, the result would be an addition of at least a dozen Liberal Members. He hoped the Leaders of the Liberal party would not allow this Bill to pass without thorough investigation; and endeavour to prevent the representation of Ireland being entirely in the hands of territorial proprietors. - and there was the general idea which was found in all Reform Bills of the enlargement of the basis of our institutions, with a view to strengthen them, by an addition to the constituency, though the addition proposed was certainly very small, espe cially when they took into consideration the proposition of the Government of Lord Russell, though it was afterwards receded from, to reduce the county franchise to £8. All that he was anxious to do now was to keep these matters open, and he hoped to discuss them in detail when he saw the plans of the noble Lord in print, together with the statement which he had promised, trusting that they would arrive at some satisfactory conclusion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by The Earl Bill to amend the Representation of the People of MAYO, Mr. DISRAELI, and Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 71.] NAVY-WOODEN SHIPS. MOTION FOR RETURNS. CAPTAIN MACKINNON moved that there be laid before this House "A List of all the wooden Line-of-battle Ships and Frigates, together with amount of their ton nage and horse-power; their original value per ton, and price of engines: "Statement of the number of such Vessels which have been sold within the last five years, and the price which the Hulls and Engines sold for in the public market: "Estimate of the number which might be made efficient as Naval Transports, and the number of troops or horses that each Vessel might conveniently carry, with quantity of coals each can stow: MR. GLADSTONE said, he should be glad to know, whether the noble Lord would lay on the table before the second reading any statement explanatory of the speech he had made, and the reasons which had guided the measures of the Government. There were two principles in the Bill worthy of remark first, the additional Members for Irish counties; and secondly, the disfranchisement or merging of the franchise of certain small boroughs. He was not prepared to object to either of "Return of the strength of the Transport Fleet those principles in limine. At the same employed during the last five years, specifying time, if the representation in Ireland was whether Steamers or Sailing Vessels, or Governto be taken from the boroughs and given ment or Hired Vessels, with full particulars of to counties, it was impossible not to take tonnage, horse-power, and capacity for conver into consideration the state of the fran-auce of troops, and the number of troops conveyed by them during the above period : chise, both in the boroughs and the counties. So far as he could learn from the statement of the noble Lord the Government had not discovered the means making a larger addition to the Irish constituency than that represented by the moderate figure of 9,000. He quite understood the principle on which the Government had acted, and attributed no blame to them or any disposition to depart from that principle. With respect to the question of the county franchise he would not at present express any opinion, but reserve to himself perfect freedom on that point. There were two new principles in the Bill, of "Table showing the comparative length of the voyages of Sailing and Steam Transports: "Return of the annual expense of the conveyance of troops: 66 of the troops as to the general efficiency of the Copies of Reports of the Officers in command Hired Transports that conveyed them: "And, of any Reports which have been, or can be obtained, through our Naval Attaché in Paris, as to the number of French Line-of-battle Ships and Frigates which have been converted into Transports, and an estimate of their efficiency in the Mediterranean, and the number of cavalry, infantry, and munitions of war each Line-of-battle Ship may be expected to carry." The hon. Member explained that the view he had in moving for these Returns PETIT JURIES (IRELAND) BILL. On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRE LAND, Bill to consolidate and amend the Law relating to Petit Juries in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND and The Earl of MAYO. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 70.] EXTRADITION. the state of our Treaty relations with Foreign Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into Governments regarding Extradition, with a view to the adoption of a more permanent and uniform policy on the subject."-(Mr. M'Cullagh Torrens.) And, on March 27, Committee nominated as follows:-Mr. M'CULLAGH TORRENS, Mr. BOUVERIE, House adjourned at a quarter was to ascertain whether our wooden fleet could not be made serviceable, at all events for the transport service, instead of the vessels being sold, as they were now, for a mere song. In case of declaration of war, this country would have to advertise for a fleet. We had now 283 transports employed in Abyssinia, and what they would cost no one could tell. We ought to turn into transports our old wooden ships that were now rotting away-being sold at £2 16s. a ton, which was a great sacrifice. MR. CORRY explained that the question had been under the consideration of various Boards of Admiralty, and they thought the adoption of the plan would not lead to a good result. The estimated cost of fitting these ships as transports would be £22,000 each, and that would hardly be a wise appropriation of the public money. They could stow so small a quantity of coal that it would be necessary to provide them with masts and yards and canvas, to enable them to make long passages under sail, and they would thus require a complement of 400 men to handle them. This would leave very little accommodation available for troops, and the ships would be deficient in the speed necessary to the performance of quick passages. If such vessels had been employed in the Abyssinian expedition, it was hard to say when they would have arrived at their destination. It was true that the French had converted some of their line-of-battle ships into transports, but their transport service was of a very different character from ours. It was one thing to send troops from Toulon and Marseilles to Civita Vecchia and Algiers, and another to send them on long voyages in stormy seas, across the Atlantic, round EARL STANHOPE said, it would be in the Cape, and to the most distant parts of the recollection of their Lordships that a the world. The preparation of the Returns Committee sat last Session on Public Busiwould cause great labour to the Depart-ness, and that one of its recommendations ment, and interfere with the current work of the office most materially. At present the Controller's office could scarcely discharge the calls upon it. The ships sold were useless, and required a staff of officers and men to take care of them; and it was a good bargain to get rid of them, at almost any price. He hoped the hon. Member would not press his Motion. MR. CHILDERS appealed to his hon. Friend to withdraw the Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. VOL. CXC. [THIRD SERIES.] HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, March 20, 1868. MINUTES.-E PROXIES.-QUESTION. was that the use of Proxies in Divisions should be discontinued, and that a Standing Order should be made against their use. He wished to be informed by the Lord Privy Seal, What course the Government intended to take for the purpose of giving effect to that recommendation? THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, he intended to call the attention of their Lordships on an early day to the recom mendations contained in the Report of that Committee, and to bring forward certain proposals founded thereon, embodying those recommendations. He should, perhaps, be able to fulfil that intention in the course of next week. 3 R REGULATION OF RAILWAYS BILL. [..]taining their dividend, while they did not (The Duke of Richmond.) (NO. 34.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read. shareholders, who were satisfied with ob take upon themselves the trouble of inquiring how that dividend had been obtained, or how the accounts had been kept, or new schemes proposed had been devised. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND, in moving The fact was that, in many instances, the the second reading of this Bill, said, that accounts were so badly kept that what our railway system had attained such vast ought to have been charged to capital proportions that all legislation connected was charged to revenue, and what ought with it must be cautious, practical, and to have been charged to revenue was well-considered. But, in dealing with the charged to capital; and, under these cirsubject, it was as necessary to look at the cumstances, it was no wonder that railinterests of the public, on whose behalf the way property had been placed in the very railways have been constructed, as it was unsatisfactory position in which they found necessary not to neglect the interests of it last year. He was by no means in the shareholders who had expended their favour of a policy by which Parliament money in those great undertakings. It would lay down stringent rules with rewas advisable, he thought, at the same spect to all the details of accounts and the time, not to enter too much, in the shape management of the various companies; of legislation, into the details of the man- but he believed it was absolutely necesagement of the different lines; but to leave sary, for the good working of the system those details, in a great measure, to the and the well-being of the companies, that discretion of the managers and boards of the fullest and most accurate information the respective companies. He believed should be supplied to all persons interested that, as a general rule, the railway man- in each line, that they should be made agers of this country were a body of men acquainted with the various schemes proof the highest intelligence, of great en- posed by the managers, and that they ergy, and thoroughly acquainted with the should know precisely how their money business which they directed. As a proof was expended. He thought the fact that not of the great magnitude of the subject, he less than £138,000,000 of the authorized would mention that, in the year 1866, the railway capital of the country was not yet authorized capital of railway companies in paid up afforded a sufficient justification the United Kingdom was £620,564,406; for the interference of the Legislature, but of that sum there had been paid up with a view to enable shareholders and £481,872,184, leaving a balance of au- Directors to see the position in which they thorized capital not paid up to the amount were placed. He believed that sufficient of £138,692,222. The length of the time had elapsed since the panic of last railways constructed was 13,854 miles, year to afford Parliament the means of and the gross revenue derived from them legislating upon the subject without actduring that year was £38,164,354. In ing in the hasty and ill-considered manner fact, the sum invested in railway enter- which might have been inevitable if they prize throughout the country amounted to had dealt with it during the last Session. rather more than half the National Debt. They had also the advantage of having The Board of Trade Returns from which he been able thoroughly to consider the Rehad taken those figures were not brought port of the Commission which had inquired down to as late a date as he could wish; but into the railway system, over which the he trusted that, by the arrangements he Duke of Devonshire had presided, and then proposed to make, that inconvenience some of whose recommendations he had would soon be remedied. It was scarcely embodied in the present Bill. He would necessary for him to remind their Lord-proceed to state what were the princips! ships that during the past year all railway objects for which the measure had been property had become greatly depreciated, and that a feeling had, at the same time, sprung up throughout the country that some reform was necessary in the management of the different lines. It was true that, in many instances, the unwise policy which had been adopted by the Directors had been sanctioned by the framed. It might be divided into six parts. The first of these parts related to accounts and audit; the second to the liabilities of railway companies in certain cases as general carriers; the third provided for the safety of passengers by giving them means of communicating with guards and engine-drivers; the fourth dealt with a subject of great importance-one in be printed and distributed, not only to the which great interest was taken by the shareholders, but to the debenture-holders, public and by the companies,-namely, who had no voice in the management of compensation for railway accidents; the the property; but who ought, he thought, fifth laid down rules with respect to the to be furnished with correct information appointment of arbitrators by the Board with respect to the position in which the of Trade; and the sixth referred to various company was placed. The next portion miscellaneous matters, to which he need of the Bill commenced with the 6th clause, not then more particularly allude. In the which would enable the Board of Trade, first part of the measure he had endea on the application of a certain proportion voured to provide for the establishment of of the holders of shares of various kinds, a uniform mode of keeping accounts by all to order an inspection of the affairs of railway companies, and for that purpose he the company. That application would be proposed to insert, in a Schedule at the end granted, if the discontented shareholders of the Bill, a form of accounts which it would should satisfy the Board of Trade that be compulsory upon all companies to adopt. it was not one of a frivolous character, He had not, however, as yet, decided what but that they were unable to obtain inforthe precise form should be, and he was mation which they had a right to demand. in communication upon the subject with The Board of Trade would then appoint an some most eminent accountants, who were Inspector who would report, not to the specially connected with railway matters, Board of Trade itself, but to the sharein order that he might obtain, if possible, holders, the state of the company. In all a system which would be approved by these proceedings there was one point that railway auditors, and which would at should be guarded against-namely, the the same time secure the object which Government taking upon themselves the he had in view. He wished to establish responsibility of the management of the such a form of accounts that any person different companies. He believed that the looking at them could see at a glance what report should be made by the Inspector to was the exact financial position of each the shareholders and not to the Governcompany. At present one company had ment; because it was clear to his mind that one form of account; a second another, no Department of Government could be and a third a form different from them held responsible for the vast extent of the both, so that it was impossible to compare railway affairs of the United Kingdom. the accounts of the various companies, as Those clauses of the Bill which related to it was desirable to do, and as he hoped inspection established no new principle, bethey would be enabled to do. There was cause the system was introduced into the another point to which he attached great Companies Act of 1862, where it was importance. In the 3rd clause of the limited to joint-stock companies; and he Bill it was provided that there should proposed by this Bill to extend it to railbe printed and issued every six months way companies. With regard to the apa statement of the estimated capital ex-pointment of the auditors of a company, penditure of each company during the following half-year. That system had been adopted for some time, and with great success, by the London and North Western Railway Company, and he perceived that at the half-yearly meeting of the London and South Western Railway, held last February, a resolution was moved to the effect that the Directors should submit to each half-yearly meeting an estimate of the sums to be expended out of capital during the ensuing six months, and the proposal, having been seconded by Lord Bury, was carried by a large majority. He (the Duke of Richmond) believed that such a measure was perfectly practicable, and that it would afford very useful information to the shareholders. Then the 4th clause required that the accounts should he had provided that in the event of a requisition to the Board of Trade, under certain circumstances, that Department should have power to appoint one auditor, not necessarily a shareholder of the company, because it was desirable in some cases that the auditors should be independent, and entirely unconnected in any way with the company. The next point referred to the liability of railway companies as carriers. When a person shipped goods at Holyhead and sent them to Dublin, the shipowner was merely liable for a limited amount of risk described in the bill of lading, which was made out at the time the goods were received on board the ship; but from the increased facilities of railway communication, and the great increase in the production of manufactured goods, the |