ÆäÀÌÁö À̹ÌÁö
PDF
ePub

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: In consequence of what fell from my hon. Friend last night on this subject, I telegraphed for information; but as I have not yet received a reply, perhaps my hon. Friend will repeat his Question on Monday. Afterwards

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he could now answer the Question. In reply to his inquiry he had received the following statement:

"The 2nd Battalion of the Rifle Brigade arrived at Portsmouth in the Crocodile on the 22nd instant, and the baggage of the battalion was loaded on the railway trucks on the afternoon and evening of that day, and was from that time in the hands of the railway authorities, ready to be forwarded to Plymouth that night. The first delivery of baggage at Devonport took place on the 27th inst., and the second on the following day. The delay rested entirely with the railway

authorities, and Messrs. Pickford and Co. were responsible-the conveyance of the baggage having been a regimental arrangement with that firm."

THE HURRICANE IN THE WEST

INDIES.-QUESTION.

proceedings of this House. I throw myself entirely on the indulgence of the House. The case is this:-On Tuesday night the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Layard), who was Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the late Government, stated in his place, amongst other things, that Dr. Beke, the eminent traveller, who has contributed alike to the information of the public and the Government, had, in a work which he had published, positively stated that Mr. Rassam, Her Majesty's Envoy, who is at present a captive in the hands of King Theodore, had misappropriated the public money. Now, this is a specific charge against Dr. Beke. I was not in the House when this statement was attributed to Dr. Beke. I happened not to be in my place on Tuesday; but yesterday Dr. Beke wrote to me to state

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot give statements and comments of other individuals on debates in this House.

MR. NEWDEGATE: I was not going to make any further statement than thisI was going to say that Dr. Beke found MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE asked, that this statement was doing him a perWhether it is the intention of the Go-sonal injury. ["Order!"] vernment to propose any grant for the relief of the sufferers by the late terrible disasters in the West Indies ?

MR. ADDERLEY said, that the Government had taken measures to relieve the immediate distress at Tortola, and one of Her Majesty's ships had been sent from the North American Station to the Island to give assistance. They also proposed to repair the pier and public buildings which had been destroyed at Tortola, and the labour thus employed would indirectly benefit some of the sufferers; but the Government had not decided as to giving any further relief from the public funds. He might remark that very large private subscriptions were being raised in this country, and he trusted that they would be amply sufficient to supply the wants of the sufferers by the late storm, in regard to food, clothing, and the re-building of private houses. The destruction was such as to destroy the chief sources of revenue in the Island for at least a year.

ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION-THE

DEBATE OF TUESDAY.-EXPLANATION. MR. NEWDEGATE: I rise to appeal to the House in reference to a case of personal injury which is likely to ensue upon matters connected with some of the

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not in Order in introducing in this House any comments by other individuals upon the debates which have taken place in this House. In the first place, the debate is past, and reference to a past debate is itself not regular. The House, I dare say, will permit the hon. Member to state shortly anything that he knows of his own knowledge; but he must conform himself to the rules of the House.

MR. NEWDEGATE: I am very unwilling to move the adjournment of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: That would not make the slightest difference.

MR. NEWDEGATE: I am perfectly aware that I am asking the House to allow me to make a statement which is not regular, and which would not be permitted except in a case where personal injury is likely to arise out of the proceedings of this House. I am aware of the rules of the House, or I should not make the appeal. I wish merely to be allowed to state of my own knowledge that Dr. Beke's book directly contradicts the allegation which has been attributed to him, that Mr. Rassam has been guilty of misappropriation or peculation of public money. This is a matter which affects two persons, one of whom is in a very critical position. Mr. Rassam

"In the letter from Mr. Rassam to Colonel

Playfair, read at the meeting of the Royal Geo-
graphical Society, to which allusion has already
been made, it is stated that the Emperor in-
sisted on Mr. Rassam's acceptance of 10,000
dollars for his expenses, which our Envoy at first
refused, but found it politic to accept, and credit
the sum to Her Majesty's Government."
That is the point. And there is a note at
the bottom of the page upon that fact, and
this is the note-

wrote a despatch on the 22nd of March, | British Captives in Abyssinia. The ex1866, of which an abstract has appeared tract addsin a Bombay paper and also in The Jewish Chronicle in this country, giving an account of his interview with King Theodore; but that despatch is not before the House. In that despatch Mr. Rassam gives an account of an interview with King Theodore. MR. CHILDERS: I rise to Order, and I do so on grounds that will commend themselves to every hon. Member of the House. The hon. Member for North Warwickshire is complaining of words used in a debate. by the hon. Member for Southwark. I will only ask him whether he has given notice to the hon. Member for Southwark that he was about to bring the subject forward? because if he has not, I am sure the hon. Member will agree with me that the subject had better be postponed.

MR. NEWDEGATE: I will answer the hon. Member at once. If I had not written to the hon. Member for Southwark I should not have felt justified in bringing this matter, as I have done, before the House. I waited till this morning, because Dr. Beke had written a letter to The Times to defend himself. But it did not appear; and I immediately wrote a letter to the hon. Member for Southwark, which I sent by my own servant; and the answer I received was that the hon. Member for Southwark had left London, and would not return for ten days. Now, the personal injury complained of is the circulation of this statement on the authority of a late official; and is this to go on for ten days? I think this ought not to pass without my being permitted to show to the House from the writings of Dr. Beke himself that the statement is without foundation. In the despatch of the 22nd of March, 1866, this passage occurs :

"Next day (4th February) the King had much conversation with Mr. Rassam, and ended by telling him that he proposed to send him to Korata, allowing him to choose whether he would stay at Korata or at Debra Tabor till the prisoners arrived; and after he retired to his tent he sent Mr. Rassam a most polite note, informing him that he had sent him some guns and pistols, and also 5,000 German crowns (Austrian speciedollars of A.D. 1780) to spend in any manner he wished, 'except in a way displeasing to God.' These presents Mr. Rassam was obliged to accept, as he was told that it would displease the King if he refused them. Twice afterwards the King gave Mr. Rassam a present of 5,000 dollars, for the same purpose and with the same admonition."

This is an extract from the despatch printed in page 200 of Dr. Beke's book-The

"I feel myself, however, called upon to remark that when Mr. Rassam so complacently vaunted the excessive humility of the Emperor Theodore towards the Queen of England, and this having (as reported in The Times of the 29th of June last) 'insisted on Mr. Rassam's acceptance of 10,000 dollars' (Mr. Rassam himself now says 15,000 dollars in all) 'for his expenses, which our Envoy at first refused, but found it politic to accept, and credit the sum to Her Majesty' Government,' he can hardly have contemplated that such a gift was intended as a mamáladja, which in Isenberg's Amharic Dictionary is defined as a 'present presented by an inferior person to a superior,' and for which the donor expects in return not merely an equivalent, but something of very much greater value. So conscious was 1 of this usage in Abyssinia, that never during my long residence in that country would I, under any pretence, accept a present from an inferior without first understanding what I was to give in return; and whenever I asked a favour of a superior, I first presented my mamáladja. It was not without a motive, then, that the Emperor Theodore lowered himself so exceedingly before Her Britanic Majesty in the person of her representative; and the question put hypothetically on the 27th of April has now become a sad reality."

The main text of the work thus continues

in

page

200

[ocr errors]

"For the reasons already stated in The Times of July 6, 1866, I cannot but think it to have been most impolitic to accept any such present. When Consul Plowden was offered by the same monarch' some hundred dollars for the expenses of his journey,' he replied, that as for the money he could not receive it, as he was paid by his own Sovereign;' at which Theodore does not appear to have taken offence; but, on the contrary, spoke to Mr. Plowden in the most affectionate manner,' and 'gave orders for his honourable reception everywhere as far as Massowah.' And, besides, there really does not seem to have been any means of spending the money in a legitimate manner-in a way not displeasing to God; for the Emperor would not allow Mr. Rassam to make presents, and himself supplied the mission with all they stood in need of. According to that gentleman's letter to Colonel Playfair, The Emperor's orders to supply Mr. Rassam with provisions and carriage free of expense on his way to the court were carried out to the letter; everything was provided on the road on the most liberal scale. Sometimes their daily rations reached as high as 1,000 loaves of bread, 2 cows, 20 fowls, 500 eggs, 10 jars of milk, 10 of honey, &c.' It is not at all clear, therefore, what Mr. Rassam

could do with these 15,000 dollars, except take | tion on the part of a gentleman whom I them on with him wherever he went; and half a have known for many years, and who to ton of silver (for they weigh nearly as much) is no trifle to carry about in a country like Abyssinia. my knowledge has, since 1851, addressed In addition to this, it may be presumed that Mr. himself on the affairs of Abyssinia to sucRassam had already the 15,000 dollars from Aden, cessive Governments, with a full knowledge to which allusion was made in the last chapter, in of the subject, having been himself one of addition to money for his ordinary expenses." the most distinguished African travellers, I think the House will see at once that and holding the gold medal of the Geothere is not the least foundation for ac- graphical Society of England, and having cusing Dr. Beke of making statements in once held that of the Geographical Society his book to the effect that Mr. Rassam had of France, though he has since returned it. peculated or misappropriated public money. In 1859 and 1860 I received from Dr. He has stated nothing of the kind. And Beke letters with intelligence threatening perhaps the House will now allow me to the disaster which we now have to enread the terms used by the hon. Member counter. I took these to Lord Palmerston, for Southwark, as reported in The Times considering that they contained matter of newspaper, by which Dr. Beke complains public importance; and one of these letters, he is injured. I should add, contained a proposal for the employment of Dr. Beke himself; it was written just before the murder of Mr. Consul Plowden, when it was understood that he was about to relinquish the Consulate. Lord Palmerston received me most courteously, referred me to Earl Russell, who saw me twice on the subject; but eventually the noble Earl preferred Mr. Cameron to Dr. Beke. Well, that appointment has not been fortunate; and this the hon. Member for Southwark himself admits. I think that it is not worthy of any hon. Member of this House to bring accusations that cannot be proved against a gentleman, like Dr. Beke, of high attainments, who, as I can tell the House of my own knowledge, has for fifteen or sixteen years brought the whole weight of his acquirements to bear upon the affairs of Abyssinia-a subject little understood at home-and who, by these exertions for the public service, has injured his own personal prospects.

MR. SPEAKER: The House has offered the hon. Member great facilities for explanation, and will hear any explanation from himself; but it will be irregular to read a letter from another gentleman commenting on a statement made in this House.

MR. NEWDEGATE: I am not going to do so. I was going to read the words in which the charge was made by the hon. Member for Southwark

"With regard to Dr. Beke, he ventured to say that any person who should have employed him would have been guilty of a gross misappropriation of public funds, and he was glad that the Government had refused the services of that most mischievous man. If Dr. Beke had only slandered him, he would not have noticed the matter; but when he had published a book, which was quoted by hon. Members, he must say that a more mendacious book had never appeared. From beginning to end it was one tissue of falsehoods and mistakes. He would mention two accusations which that man made, because they were made against a gentleman in the public service, and who was not in this country. In one passage Dr. Beke insinuated that Mr. Rassam misappropriated public money, but he only wished that Dr. MR. DARBY GRIFFITH desired to Beke could give as good an account of the money know from the Chair, whether he should intrusted to him for his mission to Abyssinia. In have been justified in moving that the another passage Dr. Beke charged Mr. Rassam with cowardice, for he said if Mr. Rassam had words of the hon. Member for Southwark consented to remain as hostage in Abyssinia he in reference to Dr. Beke should be taken might have obtained the release of all the cap-down? When he heard the language of tives. That statement was without foundation. the hon. Member he was strongly tempted Mr. Rassam was charged with cowardice because he remained with the Queen's letter at Massowah, but there were reasons of a strong nature which induced him not to go up to the King."-[The Times' Report.]

I repeat, Sir, that I was not in my place when the hon. Member for Southwark spoke; but I have consulted other Members who were present, and their opinion is that the expressions I have quoted exceed the fair limits of debate. I have now accomplished that which I undertook, by placing before the House this contradic

to make a Motion to that effect. But he

was in doubt whether he should have been in order, as the words did not refer to any Member of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: The matter in question occurred in Committee. I was not present myself, and am not cognizant of what took place. A point of order such as that to which the hon. Member refers should be addressed at once to the Chairman, and cannot be questioned on a subsequent occasion,

SUPPLY.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

ARTILLERY-CONVERSION OF GUNS

THE SEVEN-INCH GUNS.

OBSERVATIONS.

MAJOR ANSON rose to call the attention of the House to the relative cost of the Woolwich 7-inch Gun and the converted 7-inch Gun, as given on the 13th August,

SALMON FISHERIES IN THE SOLWAY. in the last Session of Parliament, by the

QUESTION.

Secretary for War. He had, however, first to thank his right hon. Friend for the frank manner in which he had met all inquiries on this subject. He (Major Anson) stated last Session that the cost of the Woolwich gun was about £425, while the con

MR. PERCY WYNDHAM asked the Secretary for the Home Department, If the Government will bring in a Bill to amend the Laws affecting the Salmon Fisheries in the Solway Frith? Up to a compara-verted gun was made for under £200. Much tively recent period the whole of the waters in the Frith were under one law, though part was in England and the other part in Scotland. The fishery legislation of 1861-2 had, however, introduced a different state of things, which was productive of great injury to the fishery. Two attempts had been made to rectify the evil, and had failed only through accident.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY regretted that, not having been able to communicate with the Lord Advocate, who just now was very much engaged elsewhere, he could not give a definite answer to the Question. It certainly seemed to him that a great injustice existed at present, as on the English side a proper examination of the nets and fisheries had taken place, whereas no such examination was provided for the Scotch shore; and it might very well be that nets were in use on the Scotch shore which inflicted injury on the fisheries on both shores. The use of nets ought to be placed on the same footing on both sides of the Solway, and he would consult the Lord Advocate upon this point.

LORD HOTHAM said, that the result of the inquiries of the Fishery Commissioners and their recommendations had, he believed, been extremely beneficial. The production of salmon and the rents of the fisheries had been thereby largely increased. This being so, ought not those who benefited from these inquiries, and the Acts passed in consequence, to pay for them? If any persons asked for an inclosure or a Drainage Act, the expense was defrayed by a rate on the property benefited. Why, then, were persons who had no connection with salmon rivers to pay for that which only filled the pockets of the owners of these waters ?

to his astonishment the Secretary for War made out in his reply that, so far from the difference in the cost of the two guns being £220, it only amounted to £140. Now, in arriving at these figures, the Secretary for War gave the price of the Woolwich gun manufactured in the Royal Gun Factories at £405, which was the actual sum that the House would be asked to vote in order to make a new gun at Woolwich; while the right hon. Gentleman gave the cost of the converted gun at manufacturers' prices-the contract price. This was not a fair comparison. If it had been determined to give the contract prices for these guns it ought to have been stated that such was the case. But not satisfied with having given the contract prices for these guns, he mentioned only the very highest estimate that had been sent in. He (Major Anson) would read to the House the estimates of Major Palliser for his guns. For the A pattern gun it was £238; for the B pattern £25 less, or £213; and since then he had produced a 7-inch gun for £195, thus reducing the estimate by £18. He (Major Anson) had no wish that in the answer given to him the lowest estimate should be stated; he would have been content with the medium price; and he thought that the estimates sent in by Major Palliser should, in justice to him, have been stated to the House. The right hon. Gentleman gave the estimate as £263, whereas the highest estimate of Major Palliser was £238. In this way £25 was put on, which was about the value of the gun sent to be converted. He need hardly point out that if the exact price of the Woolwich gun was given, the exact price in the other case should have been given also. But that was not all. He found now that the £405 which had been quoted

as the price of the Woolwich gun was not the price of that gun at all. It was the price of an imaginary gun. Only two of the Woolwich guns had been made with a wrought-iron barrel, and both had failed. The actual service 7-inch gun was made with a steel barrel, and cost £264, which was the price that ought to have been stated in the House in answer to him. He need hardly point out to the House the object of putting the Palliser gun in a point of view as unfavourable as possible, and, on the contrary, placing the Woolwich gun in the most favourable light. The subject was one well worthy of the attention of the House. If he (Major Anson) seemed to have been somewhat particular in bringing the matter under the notice of the House, his excuse was that he was convinced that the manufacturing establishments of this country, as at present constituted, wielded a power capable of crushing almost every man who attempted to improve and cheapen our warlike stores; and if inventors could not get justice at the hands of these establishments, it was all the more necessary that the truth should be stated in that House. Before he sat down there was one question which he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman. It might be in the recollection of the House that there was a lighter gun, the 32-pounder converted into a 64-pounder, with reference to which the right hon. Gentleman had said that he had been reminded that the Admiralty had ordered a further supply of the smaller converted gun, and in the conversion of that gun it was intended to proceed. Now, he (Major Anson) had heard that the authorities had re-opened the experiments in this case, and had decided that the 64-pounders were to be tested by firing 2,000 rounds each. He objected to that, on the ground of the time that would be wasted. He had not been able to find any one who had the slightest doubt that the guns would stand that test. So much was that the case, that Major Palliser was going to submit one of his guns, which had been condemned by the Royal Gun Factory, to the test in question. It might seem strange to the House that the Royal Gun Factory should sit in judgment on guns produced by rivals, but such was the case. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he might be able to apply a portion of any sum of money he might take for the manufacture of guns this year to the conversion of guns should it be deemed advisable?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON was understood to say that he objected to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's making, as he had done, a speech in the end of November in reply to a statement which had been made in the month of August. He hoped his hon. and gallant Friend did not impute to him any intention of stating anything contrary to the facts on the occasion to which he had referred. His hon. and gallant Friend had complained that he had given the highest prices, instead of the lowest ; but he had taken the price of the gun which had been tested, of which he knew the merits, and which was the only one of which he could speak. His hon. and gallant Friend complained that with regard to the estimates for converted guns he had given manufacturers' prices. That was the case, because at that time the Arsenal had no experience and had no means of arriving at an independent conclusion. The question was one of comparison between two guns of the same description; but Major Palliser's gun was made with an iron tube, whereas the Woolwich gun was made with a steel tube, and the sum of £405 was the most accurate estimate he could form supposing the gun was made like Major Palliser's, with a wrought-iron tube. But the House would probably prefer hearing what were the intentions of the Government as to the future, rather than have its time occupied with a comparatively small matter. His hon. and gallant Friend (Major Anson) asked whether he would be willing to frame the Estimates in a particular manner. He was not prepared to give a promise on that point; all he could say was that the subject should have his best consideration. There was one point upon which he agreed entirely with his hon. and gallant Friend, and that was that through all Her Majesty's possessions they were deficient in the proper and requisite number of rifled guns, and it was very important that they should proceed as quickly as they could to supply the deficiency. The first question which then arose was whether it was desirable to proceed with the conversion of the smooth-bore 68-pounder? On this point he was obliged to adhere to the opinion he had given on a former occasion that it would not be expedient to do so. For the reasons he had stated on that occasion it was the opinion of the Ordnance Department that this gun when converted would not be able to stand the heavy charges that would be required. On the other hand, the 32-pounder might be con

« ÀÌÀü°è¼Ó »